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Nerds need a "third place," too.

I've been cruising around the ol' blogosphere, and I've seen a few negative reactions to my .NET Rocks show (I've seen many more good ones, and I thank you generous bastards for that :).

Different people objected to different things. Roy Osherove was the most vocal, but he also managed to say what he was thinking without offending. I totally understood what he was saying (this doesn't mean that I agreed with it).

However, some of the other people, most notably those who post comments under the moniker "Anonymous Coward," raised other objections.

I thought I'd take a moment to try and figure this out this morning, but I'm stumped. I don't think my show was stellar by any means, but I don't think it sucked, either.

Here's why.

When I started listening to .NET Rocks, what I liked most about it was that it was one of these cool community things that people do for fun. Very much like blogging, it's something you start doing for the love of the thing. If you're faking it, and if all you want is traffic, then people will see right through the sham and drop you like a semi-solid piece of roadkill that they've suddenly realized they're holding.

I've been listening to .NET Rocks since the first show, and although there is always technical content, I've personally never judged a given show based on how much someone talked about Technology X or Tool Y. When I listened to the Chris Sells shows, I was listening more for the person behind the code/books/talks/whatever. I wanted the anecdotes, trivia, and maybe just a bit of the feel of his life.

If I want to learn how to be an effective Windows Forms coder, then I'll pick up his book. I don't plan on tuning in to a one hour show (that's really just an informal conversation between three people) with an expectation of learning something. I don't think that's what .NET Rocks is for, and I don't think the format is appropriate for use as a place to disseminate strong technical content. If you want to learn how to use Technology X, then read a book, the spec, or whatever other docs are lying around. If you want to learn about Indigo in depth, then don't listen to Don Box's show, because he is not going to make you an Indigo coder in the fraction of the show during which he talks about it.

I don't know if you've ever heard of the concept of a "Third Place," but it's the idea of having a gathering place outside of work, and outside of the home where you can meet with like-minded people in an informal setting and help produce the goo that binds a community.

Think "Cheers." It's where you go after work to meet up with your friends, throw back a few liver-rotting beverages, and talk. It doesn't even matter that much what you talk about, either. The idea is to relate. I know it sounds crazy, but even nerds have friends and want to talk about things that might only be distantly related to code, routers, and how many megagigajigapixels a digital camera should have.

In my opinion, and I could be way off base here, .NET Rocks is a "Third Place" for MS type nerds. It's an informal thing that is to be enjoyed, but not necessarily ruminated over for eons to come. I've never walked away from listening to a .NET Rocks show with the impression that I've learned enough about something to be able to get started with it right away. I'll leave with plenty of good leads - book titles, URLs, and names to get me started - but I couldn't turn around and put the information to immediate and practical use.

.NET Rocks is the chance so sit back, take a load off, and engage in some easygoing right-brained interaction with the world around you. Trying to learn a lot about a particular technical concept from the show would be like trying to learn .NET from a pamphlet on the bus ride home. It's the wrong time, wrong place, and wrong format. The pamphlet can get you started, but it isn't going to replace the books, videos, and trainers who exist for the purpose of fire-hosing this stuff into your brain.

So, the reason I think my .NET Rocks show didn't suck is that it fit in with the concept of a "Third Place." I love to code, and it's what I do for a living. However, and I know this is tough to swallow, I have other interests, too, as do Carl and Mark. Talking about those other interests, or simply talking about what a fine thing it is to be a coder, is all right. If you chuckled at all from listening to my show, then I think it was effective.

If .NET Rocks became a purely technical show that kept content on the technical straight and narrow, then it would be work. It wouldn't be pleasure, and it wouldn't be fulfilling its purpose. It certainly could become a 100% technical show, but what's the point? It couldn't compete in a world where there are many more much more efficient forms of communicating tough technical concepts efficiently.

Who in the bloody-hell wants that? Lighten up, people - it's OK to stop coding for an hour every once in a while to laugh a little with friends.

Published Thursday, January 22, 2004 6:42 PM by Rory

Filed Under:

Comments

 

Scott said:

January 22, 2004 7:18 PM
 

Phil Scott said:

I had a long comment typed out talking about people needing to lighten up, and realised I needed to lighten up about people lightening up, so I deleted everything and learn to simply accept some people just don't like to enjoy their work.

This was the first .NET rocks I listened and I have since downloaded them all. For whatever reason I had it in my head people would be reading lines of code about getting a web service to beep. Now I've learned it's fun and easy to listen to. Time goes by fast while listening, and you learn the zen of .NET and see how other big time developers think and learn. That's far more important than learning about the members System.Net.Io.Encryption.WalkieTalkie namespace. I can sit and read a book or MSDN to get that knowledge.
January 22, 2004 7:45 PM
 

DonXML Demsak said:

The whole PDC seem to be one big 3rd Place. I guess that was half the fun (and the free drinks were the other half).

User Groups could also be good 3rd Places, but the damn presentations get in the way (not that the presentations are bad, just that they get in the way of the casual chatting about whatever is on your mind).

DonXML Demsak
January 22, 2004 8:10 PM
 

Anonymous Coward said:

I didn't think it was lame because of the lack of technical pop, I thought it was lame because it just sounded like three guys sitting around telling each other they're cool and counting the ways.

'member that time you ran into don box in the bathroom.... that was cool....'

'and 'member when you wrote about that ticket counter person at the airport and you were like 'nu-unh'.... that was cool....'

I _did_ like the way Mark kept calling you 'Roy'. That was cool.
January 22, 2004 9:27 PM
 

Rory said:

Anonymous Coward -

"I thought it was lame because it just sounded like three guys sitting around telling each other they're cool and counting the ways."

<shrug>

I was giddy, and it showed.

I guess that under other circumstances, we probably would have just sat around telling each other how much we suck.

"Thanks for having me on the show, Carl and Mark! I'm so excited to be here, and I just wanted to let you guys know that you suck!"

"That's great, Rory. It's nice to have you here. You suck too, you moron."

Hmmmm... Then again, maybe not.
January 22, 2004 9:33 PM
 

Anonymous Coward said:

That's not really my point. There is a medium ground where you guys can talk about interesting stuff (that may or may not have to do with dotnet, computering, or whatever) without the 'that's cool.. heh heh heh' element reaching dangerlously high levels. It just ended up too far on the 'that's cool' side of the scale for me.

I don't know you, I'm sure you are a nice person and I'm sure you have lots of interesting things to say, I just couldn't hear it for Mark reading your blog word-for-word.
January 22, 2004 9:40 PM
 

Anonymous Coward said:

Sorry, Carl was reading your blog, not Mark.

Note to self:

Self, you need to proofread your posts...
January 22, 2004 9:42 PM
 

Anonymous Coward, not john. no said:

I thought the whole show seemed a bit fanboy-ish. You could tell you were excited to be on the show. But, I wouldn't say the show sucked because of it. I still got a little bit of tech content that spurred me to go look some stuff up. And it was entertaining and light enough that I could listen to it while I worked.
I liked it.

OH, and you probably should give up trying to figure out why certain people thought it sucked. A good portion of them are probably just pissed because you aren't a big writer or MS employee...so why do you rate to be on the show?
January 22, 2004 9:51 PM
 

Rory said:

"A good portion of them are probably just pissed because you aren't a big writer or MS employee...so why do you rate to be on the show?"

They'd probably be happy to know that I also wonder why I was allowed on :)

Not that I'm complaining - I had a great time. It might have just been for a little bit of variety...
January 22, 2004 9:56 PM
 

Ian said:

Wow, negativity bringing me down.

Well I DIDNT think the show sucked.

I thought it was cool that they interviewed someone who'd had his dangly bits inspected by Mr Box. I mean, how often do we get to hear from those folks?

Plus a bunch of people read your blog, and sometimes, as you said, it's nice to get a 'behind the blog' VH1'y kind of deal.

Yeah, you could have talked about work more, life more, what you had for breakfast but you didn't. thats ok. If I was bored I'd have just turned it off. It was just cool to here what you sounded like (which was nothing like I imagined (not that I think about you speaking much. Honest,I should stop) I forgot how many nested parenthesis I dug my self into. Oh, just 2).

Trouble is now I need to here Kori speak, I'm not sure why - call me nosy, but now I've heard you, and you didn't sound like I imagined (I won't start that again) I feel like I need to see if Kori sounds like I imagined (still not going there).

Maybe you two should interview each other. You could talk about each others blog and see how many people you could get to complain about how dull it was. I'll run a book if you like, we can bet on the number of negative ninnies that post a comment.

Hey it's cold out, what else are you gonna do?

You'd have at least one fascinated listener!
January 22, 2004 10:24 PM
 

Roy Osherove said:

Call me two faced, but I don't think you should be apologizing, or even explaining, or even bothering to write about how other people didn't think this was the best show of all time. Sometimes people have different tastes and that's that. The more you think about it the more you let it get under your skin (and I know how that feels) . So just leave me to grunt alone in the corner ;-)
Anyways, I keep thinking what I was missing on the show, and I think the biggest bulprit was this: I learned absolutly nothing new about you that I could not learn by reading your blog.
January 22, 2004 10:45 PM
 

Roy Osherove said:

ugh... *spelling* on Norwegian keyboards hurts. That was meant to be "culprit" :)
January 22, 2004 10:46 PM
 

Rory said:

Roy -

"Call me two faced, but I don't think you should be apologizing, or even explaining, or even bothering to write about how other people didn't think this was the best show of all time. Sometimes people have different tastes and that's that."

I'm not really apologizing. I guess I felt like your post inderectly brought up a good issue: What's the role of .NET Rocks?

Thought I'd go through and detail what the show's meant to *me* since it started, and why my particular episode might have progressed the way it did :)
January 22, 2004 10:53 PM
 

Mark Dunn said:

I believe Rory (Roy) summed up what the show is all about. Its really edutainment. Also, its impossible to create a show that will appeal to everyone. I wanted Rory to be the guest on my last show after meeting him at the PDC and seeing this blog. I think its rare to find a combination of tech content and wickedly good satire as you see here. Perhaps the show will bring in more readers. I enjoy reading this blog, learn a bit and laugh a bit too. I also think Rory would make a great addition to the DNR and I've brought that idea up with Carl.

Rory, saw your post about my website. I've included the link but content won't be available there for another three weeks. It'll all be boring company stuff.

Peace and Happy Coding to All,

-Mark

p.s. I meant to pronouce your name Rory. My southern accent just doesn't get it done.

-md
January 22, 2004 10:55 PM
 

Roy Osherove said:

Rory: I guess if people care enough to be talking about it so much than the show is on a good track. Remember, you only fight for what you love, not what you don't care about :)
I think we're on the same side here, even if we have different opinions.
And Mark: Wish you could stay on the show.
January 22, 2004 11:08 PM
 

Roy Osherove said:

Just out of good measure I'll add that I once offered myself as a guest on the .Net rocks show and was turned down since there were already shows about blogging (with scoble).
However, this was not why I wrote what I wrote and I am not "pissed because you aren't a big writer or MS employee". I try to be fair about stuff I write and that was my opinion on the show.
January 22, 2004 11:16 PM
 

Edneeis said:

I listened to that particular show just to see what all the hype was about and I thought it was a blast. I then did some catching up on past shows I hadn't heard before. Everyone always has their own spin on things, I'm with Roy don't waste time thinking about it.
January 23, 2004 4:37 AM
 

Carl Franklin said:

Wow - look what you started, Rory!

Anonymous Coward said: "I learned absolutly nothing new about you that I could not learn by reading your blog."

This show was for the 95 million people who DON'T know about Rory and his blog. What kind of show about Rory would not want to attract attention to this weblog?

Anyway, I think it's really cool how people are reacting to this little show. His whole point (ok, a little gushy, but he's new at this) was a very good one. Many people listen to the show to hang out and relax with like-minded geeks, not to learn lots of dry details about technology.

We aim to stimulate your thoughts but also satisfy your need to hang with nerds. Maybe it's that some nerds don't want to admit they need to be with other people sometimes. <g>

Anyway, my task now is to convince Rory to move to New London to do the show LIVE with me every week!

Whaddya say? Let's encourage him!
January 23, 2004 5:59 AM
 

rick said:

[Note: This will be more humorous (and insightful) if you drink excessive amounts of alcohol based beverages (particularly if the alcohol is a Russian vodka) and read everything with a heavily affected fake Russian accent. At least it seemed that way to me. But, then, I've been drinking. You're on your own.]

Say...Who is this *Rory* fellow anyway? And just how BIG is his penis?

Does his penis matter? To him, you bet!

Does he have nice hair? Yes! Is his girlfriend pretty? Yes! Does he have a cool car? Oh, yes.

He is a hero? Maybe! He is a sycophant? I don't know. A biggie biggie writer man? I think so.

He is comedian? Yes! He is beautiful? Of course! He is singer? And how!

Does his blog have search? No! Can he say, "I'm a pretty little princess" in Russian? Yes, or something very much like it.

Is he a fine friend? Absolute. Is he a good human? For sure.

Ask your questions. Speak your minds. Judge him if you will; if you are worthy.
January 23, 2004 6:31 AM
 

Todd McKinney said:

Rory, No you didn't suck.

I think the show was funny and that you turned in a fine performance. I'll take irreverent and real over a tv news anchorman any day. The fact that so many people care to comment on it should be proof that you're doing something right.

I also think that you're right on the philosophy. I can learn a lot of technical details on just about anything that I'm interested in learning. That's not why I listened to your show. I listened because I wanted to hear from the guy who seems so funny sometimes on the blog. Congrats, man. It's an honor, and you should be pretty happy with what you've done there.

Two thumbs up...

Where is New London, in Connecticut? Isn't it something like 20 degrees below zero there? Yeah, you should go. That would probably make the blog even better :)
January 23, 2004 6:42 AM
 

Rory said:

Holy crap :)

I've been out of touch with the net for most of the day because I've been on a little road trip up to Seattle - Looks like there was a bit of activity here while I was plowing through the rain on I-5.

Yowza.

Crap. Wow.

For those of you who said nice things: Crap. Wow. Thanks.

For those of you who didn't: Crap. Wow. OK.

What a weird couple of days...
January 23, 2004 7:28 AM
 

Bliggy said:

Rory, what is your yearly income range as a 'consultant'? Obviously you do not have to answer, I'm curious whether or not you're *ahem* still getting on your feet *ahem* or if you're *ahem* well *ahem* established.

a) 0 - 40,000
b) > 40,000

After you answer the question, you can comment on my *ahem* *ahem*s *ahem*
January 23, 2004 8:41 PM
 

Rory said:

Bliggy -

The answer is:

b) > 40,000

However, my income has taken a little dip recently as I've begun to focus more on this blog and other communityish things that I'm valuing over money.

I don't know if this answers any of your questions, but that's the story :)

Did you want to know anything else?
January 23, 2004 9:03 PM
 

Bliggy said:

I was hoping you'd say that ... CAN I HAVE SOME? PLEASE PLEASE, CMON JUST A LITTLE, CMON - WHY NOT? WHYYEYEYEYEYEYEY NOT?
January 23, 2004 9:05 PM
 

Bliggy said:

Whaddya think of this?

ax^2 + bx + c = x^2 + (b/a)x + (c/a)

x^2 + (b/a)x + (b/2a)^2 = -(c/a) + (b/2a)^2

(x + (b/2a))^2 = -(c/a) + (b/2a)^2

(x + (b/2a)) = [+/-]SQRT(b^2 - 4ac)/2a
x = (-b [+/-] Sqrt(b^2 - 4ac)) / 2a

Aren't you proud of me?
January 23, 2004 9:10 PM
 

Rory said:

"I was hoping you'd say that ... CAN I HAVE SOME?"

You sound like the IRS :)
January 23, 2004 9:12 PM
 

Bliggy said:

"You sound like the IRS :)"

Perhaps I am, Rory G. Blyth, perhaps I am.
January 23, 2004 9:15 PM
 

Ryan Farley said:

I didn't think the show sucked. I enjoyed it. And Rory, unlike Ian, to me you sounded just as I imagined. I've been a "Rory blog reader" for a while now and it was nice to see more of the personality behind the posts.
January 23, 2004 9:22 PM
 

Bliggy said:

There was once a great line in a great movie ... '[...] Let's not start sucking each others dic** just yet [...]' [...] and [...] being the rest of the move pre and post great line, respectively.

Allow me to illuminate:

1. O-Rory, my rory, our fearful trip is done [...]

2. Shall I compare thee to a summer's day? Rory art more lovely and more temprate [...]

3. I have a dream, that one day Rory Blyth will riiiiise up [...]
January 23, 2004 9:27 PM
 

Bliggy said:

By the way, Rory, I really do like your blog and you seem like a nice guy ... I just love all of the fan letters you get :-) Also, the G. in Rory G. Blyth above ... I had a 1 in 26 - if I hit it, though, maybe you'd really think I WAS the irs (or at least that I worked for the irs).
January 23, 2004 9:37 PM
 

Rory said:

"I just love all of the fan letters you get"

I love the letters too, because they counter the not-quite-so-fan-letter letters that I get in my inbox on occasion (and that pop up in forums (and on other sites (and other assorted places))).

I actually get slammed quite a bit more than people realize. I'd probably stop blogging if I didn't get the occasional "You're doing all right" comment...

It's not like I get paid for this stuff, so finding that some people enjoy it is a just compensation.
January 23, 2004 9:44 PM
 

Scott said:

ugh, the "Rory G. Blyth", when read by me, sounded too much like "Roy G Biv" and brought back many university physics flashbacks.

http://faculty.washington.edu/crowther/Misc/Songs/roygbiv.shtml

January 24, 2004 12:21 AM
 

Andy said:

quote:
It's not like I get paid for this stuff, so finding that some people enjoy it is a just compensation.

You know you could get paid for the quality of writing you do. Like I said before all you have to do is act on it, you have the talent and the editor likes your writing already. Wether you decide to or not is up to you but there are a lot of columnists out there who don't have 1/8th the ability you do. They get paid well to write, so should you. If you need me to refresh your contact info to get a hold of said editor let me know and I'll send you his contact info. Your doing a good job, keep it up!
January 24, 2004 4:36 AM
 

Guy Incogonito said:

stop play-a hatin g! fo shizzle dizzle.
January 24, 2004 7:58 PM
 

Rory said:

Andy -

The problem is that I don't know anything about CAD :(

I'd hate to write for a magazine but not be able to provide information relevant to its core topic.

Basically, I feel that I wouldn't be able to do the magazine justice, although I appreciate the offer very much :)
January 24, 2004 8:37 PM
 

Andy said:

All right if you say so, but I think you have plenty of just straight coding knowledge to contribute.

The big shift in the CAD community right now is the change to .NET. Especially C#. There is almost a complete lack of basic knowledge of it within the CAD programming community. I'm not a CAD person either I just have a lot of computational geometry experience that is how they came to contact me. They are starving for basic coding knowledge for everything from Forms to Database connections. I know you have worked with connecting to AS400 systems at the gas company and a lot of CAD places use AS400 billing systems, the list goes on and on. The CAD community is badly in need of .NET coders and that magazine needs authors who can teach that. You could always just contact the editor and ask for a subject to write on that's not CAD based, I'm sure he'd hook you up. He's a close friend of mine (he's a retired CS professor not a CAD person either). For heavens sake the first thing I wrote for them was on using ADO from C++. Not much CAD there for sure.

I'll quit bugging you about it but I'm convinced your writing is of the quality that you should make money at it.

I'll hopefully see you at the next nerd dinner.
January 25, 2004 1:15 AM
 

marco said:

Rory,
It was great to meet you in New London.
Your blog seemed very wysiwyg, and
your presence in person seems to be
every bit the same.
It's always nice to meet another person
who's truly the real deal.
And that'd be you.

Cheers,
marco
February 5, 2004 11:18 PM
 

Rory said:

Thanks, Marco :)

I had a good time out there, and it was fun hanging out, so I know what you're talking about.
February 5, 2004 11:24 PM
 

TrackBack said:

What the heck is he thinking &raquo; Blogosphere as a Third Place
January 22, 2004 7:17 PM
 

TrackBack said:

I don't have a 3rd Place
January 22, 2004 8:05 PM
 

TrackBack said:

Rory and his
January 22, 2004 11:20 PM
 

TrackBack said:

The Third Place
January 23, 2004 12:41 AM
 

TrackBack said:

Rory and .NET Rocks
January 23, 2004 5:27 AM
 

TrackBack said:

(OT) Epicurious Microbrewery Tour
February 3, 2004 10:30 PM
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