Dude,

You know, I used to be a big Rory fan. Now I just think you're an ass.

Your "humor" tends to focus on complaining or disrespecting people that are different than you. It's too bad you think you need to do that to be entertaining or funny. Or worse, maybe this is just the real you.

I am a religious person, and although I think you definitely said some things that would be considered "sacrilegious" by many, I understand where you are coming from, having been on that side of the fence for most of my life. I believe that although God is omnipotent, he also has a larger plan that involves people making their own decisions and living with the consequences (thus all of the 'bad' stuff going on in the world). This is not the forum for such a discussion, but if you are ever interested in having such a discussion (free from me attacking your right to remain without religion!) drop me a line.

People that are like that even scare me. I mean, it is one thing just to casually mention it, another thing to roam around with 9 other people and confront total strangers in such a way . . . and at night? Scary.

By the way, if you want to eat some killer Mexican (authentic) food, head to Old Town in San Diego and eat at Casa de Bandita, the Carnitas there is to die for. Also have the tacos with the avocado, oh the grandeur!!!

FormerRoryFan,

True, Rory may like to stick his foot in his mouth once in a while, but for the most part he is just like you and me: human.

BTW Rory, the line about eating a rainbow and throwing up is classic. Laughed myself to death!

Rory, I guess I must be the one out of ten who is not offended. Not only am I not offended, but I agreed with everything you said, as well as laughed my ass off (and how am I supposed to reattach it now? Think about that next time!).

Controversy. Arrogance. This post has it all. Nice. I'm impressed. :)

I'd imagine it would be easily more than 9/10 btw.

Can I play too?

I did some research on stats like that in my country recently. The religion ones are much higher in the USA than here. I also looked up stats on smokers and suicide.

In Australia more than 10% of people die from suicide. That means for every 10 people I know one will kill themselves. That's been pretty consistent throughout the history of this country.

http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/BE00331A0C387533CA2569DE0024ED5B?Open

About 25% of people are smokers. 50% are ex-smokers or occassional smokers, and 25% of people have never smoked. The price of smokes is 70% tax.

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/255F3AA6FBBF54A8CA256C3200241820?Open&Highlight=0,smoking

Rory, perhaps it is time for you to start a cult? I'm kinda thinking something along the lines of this one: http://www.anus.com/

:)

John.

[After comment mint]

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=108411&threshold=0&commentsort=0&tid=103&tid=126&tid=158&tid=172&tid=99&mode=thread&cid=9215045

CurrentRoryFan: I love the format, dude, and you made me laugh out loud several times. : )

Rory, you fool... it's an omen from God and you're too blind to notice. On any other typical night, an encounter with a group of 9 zombie youths in San Diego late at night would almost certainly mean death, loss of funds, or the forceful placement of objects in places they shouldn't be placed.

Isn't it ironic that instead you were enlightened? Don't take it for granted, you insensitive clod.

FormerRoryFan -

"Your 'humor' tends to focus on complaining or disrespecting people that are different than you."

Keep this in mind: I wouldn't have said anything at all except that the other guy, the God-pusher, approached me and started trying to get me to buy into his way of life.

What I've posted here was really just a subset of the conversation. There was also a lot of quoting of scripture, as well as more than one mention that the source of problems in my life is due to my not having accepted this guy's religion. I guess I was a little pissed off that some jerk I had just met thirty seconds prior could have had the audicity to believe that he had some kind of Healing Hands that could brush away whatever problems I've had in life.

I figured that this post would offend a few people, but resonate quite well with those it didn't.

Anyway, I'd rather be myself than constantly try to appease people and be "PC."

John -

"Controversy. Arrogance. This post has it all. Nice. I'm impressed."

The controversey I understand. However, I wanted to be clear for anybody else getting ready to comment that the arrogance was *his*.

The Merriam Webster dictionary describes arrogance like this:

"a feeling or an impression of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or presumptuous claims"

This is *exactly* what's behind the attitude that drives people to try and convert others (whether to a religion or atheism or whatever).

There's a great deal of arrogance to believing that you can just approach random people on the street and magically brush away their problems by selling them your religion.

I have no problem at all with religion. My religious friends know this. As long as nobody is getting discriminated against, and as long as nobody is *arrogantly* claiming that their way is "better" (we all probably believe that our own ways are best, otherwise we wouldn't have them), I'm OK. However, get someone like this guy from last night, and I get pretty pissed.

I also get tired of the notion that it's OK for people to approach and push others to accept a religion, but that it *isn't* OK to react negatively to the pushers.

It it arrogant to the *extreme*. In part, that's why I wrote this post. Not just to be "funny" or whatever, but because part of me wants to rebel, take all my clothes off, and go running into the middle of the street so that I can shout at the top of my lungs about how totally f*cked the double-standards are that surround social issues like these.

No big deal, though. I figured I'd get quite a few negative reactions as people confused my distaste for arrogant jerks (the God pusher) with religion (with which I have no problems).

Can any of you more religious types tell the rest of us what existed before God?

Don't know where the 9 out of 10 came from, considering some of the searches that get to your site, they would have packed up and left a long time ago.

Religion or not, we are all different. What makes us a good person is that we respect others and their cultures, beliefs and caffeine addictions.

I agree with you though, no-one should be pushing something onto someone they don't even know.

As I started to read the post I thought it was going to be "Gimme your watch" kind of story.

I once saw a picture of a sign in front of a church that said the following:

"The most powerful position is on your knees"

Oh boy, that cracks me up. Nice post Rory. I have to imagine that if 999/1000 Americans believe in some god then 9/10 Rory readers would be a good guess for the god believer ratio. They say that education is the greatest enemy of faith.

Well good on ya Rory! I always tend to respond by picking out the fattest and best dressed individuals in the group and say:

"Hey, well you're wearing some pretty smart clothes, don't you think you could have bought something cheaper and given money to the poorer people? And how about you! You look like you've been consuming more than your fair share of the world's resources! How dare you suggest you can solve my problems, you clearly have some thinking to do of your own mate!"

Young Master,

> Can any of you more religious types tell the rest of us what existed before God? <

A giant taco that crapped ice-cream?

Rory,

> I figured I'd get quite a few negative reactions as people confused my distaste for arrogant jerks (the God pusher) with religion (with which I have no problems). <

What!? No problem with religion!? I just lost a whole lot of respect for you Rory. Unsubscribed.

Heh. Just kidding. ;) (yeah, bad joke, I know.. but don’t you think religion has caused (or been the justification for) an awful lot of human suffering?)

I pretty much agree with your sentiments, although I wouldn't have been so precious about the 'discrimination' stuff... discrimination just means choosing one thing above another. Every time you make any decision you discriminate, so it’s kind of stupid to say that people shouldn’t discriminate. In many ways, a statement like that is just “PC” waffle. I object equally to the way that words like ‘stereotype’ and ‘prejudice’ are used by people too. A stereotype is just a statistical measure of likelihood, and a prejudice is just an awareness of the stereotypes on first encounter. Of course, false stereotypes are bad, and putting something in a box after having an opportunity to confirm if it conforms to the stereotypes is bad. But you can distil that observation down to being interested in the ‘truth’.

The reason I said arrogance, is because I don't really hold that as negative. I wasn’t taking a shot at you. Indeed, to assert a contrary opinion to the majority is by definition presumptuous and by your own volition 90% of people would be upset with this post, presumably because they don't agree with aspects of what you are saying/implying. Further, you mock and belittle someone who truly believes that they are helping you – that indicates at least some attitude of superiority and is to some degree overbearing. Who are you to say that he’s not doing the right thing? (get my point?)

So, both you and the religious zombies are arrogant by virtue of the fact that you believe in your own contrary opinions regardless of what the other has to say and are willing to express those opinions in the face of criticism. Perhaps arrogant and conformist are on opposite sides of the same spectrum.

It was interesting to note how often you said exactly the opposite of what you thought in your communication with these people. Like for example, “yes” for “no” and “I appreciate that” for “I don’t give a shit”..

Next time you’re accosted by a religious zealot, why don’t you try to express a concise version of your truth? Perhaps something along the lines of: “No. You’re wrong. Fk off.”

John.

Rory,

I understand your disdain for these unfortunate types. In their ignorance they do far more to turn people off than to pique their interests (as evidenced by your post).

Anyway, the reason I'm chiming in is that I fancy myself the lone voice crying in the wilderness that is Neopoleon.com (my tongue is in my cheek :) ) so I just wanted to point out that the part about everything you just said being God's will because He is omnipotent is faulty theology. I'm not sure if you were thinking that this is the Chrisitian world view or that it should be or something else entirely, but omnipotency does not preclude free will; it's entirely possible that neither the zombies in their proselytizing nor you in your writing were fulfilling the will of God.

Carry on then. :)

My kid asked a good question about a month ago...

"Dad, who created God?"

Funny, but nobody can answer that for me to any kind of satisfaction. The closest thing to an answer is "He has always existed and will continue to exist for eternity." Somehow, that just doesn’t work for me.

What I would like to know is if God is so powerful, why did he have to rest on the seventh day?

What I want to know is why were the "zombies" pushing religion on you? Out of love? Or because they were promised some kind of reward?

You managed to find nine religous youths in San Diego, good job. I cant find one on the entire east coast. Its probably a good thing you didnt go to their pool party because they could have been holy rolling homosexuals and you could have wound up the victim of a gang ass-raping. Remember, if you are in LA, San Francisco and San Diego and someone you dont know invites you to a party, GO THE OTHER WAY...

As a bible believing, holy spirit filled christian myself, I take offence... :-P

Just kidding about the offence. I had a friend who'd sometimes "randomly" stop people and proclaim "You're going to hell, unless you accept Jesus". He honestly believed that he was doing a lot of good coz one or two people out of a thousand might respond. Unfortunately I knew many more people who seriously disliked this, and resented christianity because of people like him.

I guess I feel the same way about a "Java zealot" who feels compelled to talk to me about the superiority of Java over .Net. (Usually they don't even have any experience in .Net, and are just repeating something that they've been told) But when someone I know, and trust says "Check out this cool Java thingy", I'll listen...

It doesn't change the fact that I believe that you're going to hell if you program in Java... :-) um, I mean... if you don't believe in Jesus. But I don't believe that forcing christianity on someone else is a good "marketing tactic". Any true decision is made by yourself - out of your own choice, not because "someone else said it's the right thing", or "forced" you to.

I guess you could look at any "product" that's marketed - bad marketing doesn't mean the product is bad, it just means that the marketer doesn't understand the "product", or the "target market" well enough.

I am not offended.

Have a great time at the church of .net meeting in san diego. I think they are preaching to the converted though.

Like Paul said, it could have been worse, it could have been 9 java zombies.

peter

Im not offended either, and you sound a lot more tolerant of zealots than I would ever be, I suppose its from being dragged up catholic it can really put you off the god thing.

I was once lectured to by a fellow colleague about the errors of my ways and firm belief in evolution. He explained that there were holes in the theory that not all pieces of the puzzle were there it therefore it was obviously rubbish and god was the answer. I pointed at a picture of an unfinished jigsaw of a tiger, "See that, there are pieces missing, but its still a 'kin tiger!"

Ohh evolution lets throw that in for good measure too and see the god squad bite.

Don't get me started on religion. The best bumper sticker I ever saw was one saying:

"Religion is the problem, not the solution"

How true. How very, very true.

P.S. If you feel Rory has offended you then simply forgive him. That's what good Christians are supposed to do after all.

Thank God you didn't meet up with an Australian suicide cult.

Check out Ocean Beach if you have the time, thats were Jesus hangs out whenever he is in San Diego.

When I first read the post, I thought you were way over reacting, and being quite rude. However, I too have been in a situation similar to the one you describe in your clarification, and found it tiresome, frankly. Also, I found it difficult to escape without being extremely rude. And I hate being rude.

I mean, a great way to start a sales pitch is to inform someone they are evil, or misguided, isn't it? And approaching individuals in a large group isn't intimidating at all!

All those who're judging Rory are probably forgetting some phrases from their precious bible.

And Rory, just in case these religious types are right, remember this : All interesting people go to hell (Rock starts, ground breaking scientists, ...)

I just want to second what Stuart and Paul said. I can completely understand not wanting to be approached at night by 9 youth, no matter what they are approaching you about. That is just a bad idea. My main problem with your post was what Stuart noted on. You said that God is entirely responsible for what you said. Actually though, God gives us all free will. You making this post is the perfect example of that. Free will is what allows us to do whatever we want. It gives us the choice to accept or reject God's love for us.

Someone also said they loved a bumper sticker that said that religion was the problem not the answer. To a certain extent I would agree with that. But my agreement with it would be based on the fact that Christianity isn't supposed to be a religion. At Christianity's core it is all about a relationship with God. It is when we start adding other requirements that things get screwed up.

So anyway Rory, I don't hate you now. I won't stop reading your blog. If you ever want to talk with a Christian who is willing to listen to another persons view and respectfully present the Christian side of things, drop me a line bro.

> Actually though, God gives us all free will. <

Causality tends to point to free will as an illusion. I can observe causality.

There is one past (that effects you).
QED.

John.

I'm not expecting you to really understand what motivated those guys to approach you. However I would expect you to understand that only because we can't rationally explain something with our limited knowledge doesn't mean that an explanation doesn't exist. I hope one day you will understand.

Who was it who said "If religion didn't exist, we would have to invent it".

But on this subject, Christianity is no more of a religion that listening to music, watching films, programming etc. If we all realised how simple our little lives were we there would be no control or structure. Religion or any art is just the whole subjective vs objective thing. I hate it when 5th columnists try to tell me not to watch a film because they have interpreted one way or can’t appreciate it.

I have no problem with religion whatsoever, but enough evangelism already. I thought terrorism is the new way to control people in the 21st century anyway, Christianity is so last millennium.

Btw, these religious discussions that ruffle everyone's feathers, go on for ages, and end up making no conclusions are always my favorite. :)

I don't like it when people point out that "are no longer a fan" though. That seems to have the implicit assumption that:

A) Anyone cares about your opinion of them based on their expression of their views

B) That communication is just some sort of popularity contest and you felt it was necessary to cast your vote.

I don't like either of those implied assumptions.

John.

There's a study about your site's readers?
This study pegs 9 out of 10 of us to be easily offended?
Where is this study?

So Jesus is at Tech-ed. So that's everyone then, except me.

Rory,

I really enjoyed your post. So you've met a real life "Evangelical Born Again Christian." I've had similar run-ins.

Strange that someone would approach you about this at TechEd. To me, this is as freaking weird as someone walking up to you at your wedding and asking you what kind of toilet paper you use.

I don't understand why people think that they have the right to talk to another human about something that personal. I will never understand this.

You know, Bush is a Evangelical Born Again Christian. It's this kind of thinking that has left us in the current mess we're in.

All this being said, I have some strange respect for someone who believes in something so strongly that they can't help themselves from being this idiotic in public. If everyone didn't bother with small talk, and went straight to the point like this, the world would be more fun indeed.

Come to think of it, you're similar in this respect to this person, aren't you? I think that's why I like and read your blog.

Sorry for the ramble. Blog on brother, and god bless. (he he)

"It's this kind of thinking that has left us in the current mess we're in. "

No, that would be the clinton adiminstration.

man, i'm offended.

you got it all wrong! zombies eat peoples brains, the living dead has 0 interest in any kind of religion.

get it right buddy;)

Dear Christians,
It's tough being an atheist. We get very little respect, perhaps because we have no sacred knowledge to defend, and we are forced to define ourselves in terms of what we are not.
It would be easier for me to respect you if they were more careful to qualify their belief statements, eg: "God gives us all free will". Such a statement is very patronizing to me, because it is based on a premise which you KNOW i think is false [that God exists]. By saying things like this you are attempting to skip the hard part of the argument by jumping straight to the sweetener.
Also, Rory writing the post doesn't prove that God gave him free will, and it doesn't prove that God exists, it simply proves that Rory exercises free will.
Another example of your condescension is the suggestion that we all have the "choice to accept or reject God's love", again premising the argument on the assumption that God exists. Believe me, if i thought he was real i would WANT his love, but since i don't believe in him, i don't believe in his love, so it's a bit hard for me to reject it. [except by extension, in which case i clearly also reject his beard]. People who confuse these concepts [or knowingly smile implying that they are the same] creep me out.

Rory (and All),

While I totally agree with Rory's right to believe what he believes as well as respect the rights of he and other folks who have chosen not to follow Christianity, I don't think that he should have posted this.

Keep in mind, Rory chose to make this post and in my humble opinion, I think it was a bad post. Not for the content mind you, just for the delivery. Have fun at TechEd, blog about TechEd, but understand when you voice opinions as strong as those expressed in this post, be prepared for controversy, disgust, and praise all wrapped up in one.

Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion. But not everyone needs to hear that opinion all the time.

And you might say "Well, Lamont, if you don't want to read the opinion, don't read the blog" Well, personally I don't, but because I aggregate a lot of blogsphere members blogs and I start seeing posts commenting on this post, one can't help but ignore it, especially as sensitive a topic as this. It's a little disheartening.

All religions are cults, just a matter of time till they break out the koolaid. What impresses me about Rory is his willingness to expose himself to attracts by others by expressing his true beliefs. Why should it matter what Rory believes? What harm is caused by him communicating his beliefs?

<quote>No, that would be the clinton adiminstration.

User: Not Paul <quote>

So can we blame George H.W. Bush for the first world trade center bombing, the lockerbie bombing, the cole bombing and everything else that happened while clinton was president?

The main problem with this administration ios they don't take responsibilty for their own actions. Terrorists were capable of the 9-11 attacks when clinton was in office but they did not do it then. Why do you think that is? I prefer to think it's because they knew they could drag bush into a war.

cheddar,

slick willy had UBL handed to him numerous times and didn't take it

would that have prevented 9/11? I dunno

but this administration is *definitely* paying for the negligence of the previous one. You can't possibly argue that.

Notice how you don't hear anything about the 9/11 hearings? It was all the media carried back when they were trying to pin it on GW and Rice. Once that was debunked, you never hear about it. It is, however, convenient that probably the person *most responsible* for the wall between the fbi and cia (hindering the ability to connect domestic and international crime) is on the commission!

Christians believe that the only way to heaven is to "give" your life to Jesus Christ. God sacrificed his son (Jesus Christ) to save us from all of our sins.

Now, I don't want to *defend* people who "push" their religion on others as that is not the point. I would like to give some perspective for those who have good intentions but are not very tactful. Christians are prodded by scripture to tell others about Jesus Christ in an effort to "save their soul". I mean, if you thought those who had not found God were going to hell then you would probably feel it was your duty to help them find God such that they would not have suffer in hell for eternity.

Also, at no time did you tell them you not interested? I mean, you seemed to know that the conversation was headed in a "weird" direction so why did you not stop them if you were offended? I don't actually believe what they did was that bad because you didn't tell them that you weren't interested.

I found your blog entry quite funny anyway!

All the christian outrage over Rory's failure to show "proper" respect for their beliefs just confirms my perception that christians are fundamentally stupid. This is one man's blog. He can post what he wants. Get over it and move on. You christians of course are free to believe whatever you want. I, for one, have no respect for your childish and delusional thinking. Fuck Jesus.

This is far more facinating than the Alien topic!

I think you should shift this blog from programming stuff to this stuff!

This is fantastic. I am staying, no way am I leaving Rory now- it's getting way too interesting. Better than TV!

I commend Rory for being honest about his non-belief. In American society, it's not the most popular point of view.

I agree 100% with Rory's sentiment. In general I am suspect of any idealology that feels the need to force itself on others.

who let the guy with the phd in philosophy in?

Chris said, "In American society, it's not the most popular point of view."

Wake up, neither is christianity.

Apathy is king.

Personally I think we're all insane.

There's a whole lot of hostility flying around; we're all coming from different places and we are all in different place now, no? But no matter where we are, there is a right and a wrong. Rory is agnostic but perceives arrogance and pushiness as wrong. Others here have professed Christian belief, and these people, too, have beliefs (which are remarkably similar to Rory's, by the way) about what is right and wrong.

Anyway, I'm not in this thread to make judgement calls about anyone's core beliefs. I know what I believe, and I'm not so naive as to think that this brief passing in cyberspace will change anyone's mind. I'm really just here to present a point of view that I think is well-reasoned and true.

Having said all this, there seems to be a perception that the people who confronted Rory were doing so in an effort to save their souls [Alex Lowe says something to this effect as does Catatonic], and perhaps they were. However, this is bad theology and not true Christianity (it's the remarkable thing about Christianity -- there is an ultimate authority and truth against which "Christian" ideas and actions can be measured).

Just to set the record straight in this matter, a mature Christian knows that there is nothing at all one can do to earn salvation. In fact, that's essentially the whole point of Christianity. The fact that this fundamental precept is controversial or unknown to many "Christians" might give the casual observer perspective on the overall maturity of American Christians -- which in turn may explain the attitude of revulsion so many people today have towards Christianity.

The Java / .NET metaphor *is* appropriate here, I think. How many .NET developers revile Java because of the idiots who talk about how "M$ suxorz" despite the fact that they have no firsthand knowledge that can attest to this? More than a few, eh?

And so it turns out that people suck (there are probably more "Christian" ways to say that, but I think it's conceptually the same). They sometimes have bad, wrong ideas about good, true things and act upon them.

So what? :)

Rory, I think this was God's was of telling you that you should have rallied and come to the Jam session after all.

You were not there, ergo you are evil and need saving.
Be there tonight and be !evil. And !saved.

so ends the sermon

In the immortal words of Cheech & Chong:

"I used to be all screwed up on drugs...now I'm all screwed up on the Lord."

<quote author="mark"> "God gives us all free will". Such a statement is very patronizing to me, because it is based on a premise which you KNOW i think is false [that God exists]. </quote>

Yes, it is based on the premise that God exist. It was also pointed towards Rory, who does believe in a god, just not necessarily the Christian God. If a premise to an argument offends you, I'm sorry, but the argument wasn't directed at you.

<quote author="mark">Also, Rory writing the post doesn't prove that God gave him free will, and it doesn't prove that God exists, it simply proves that Rory exercises free will. </quote>

If I miss worded my statement, then I am sorry. I only intended to say that Rory's post is a perfect example of him exercising his free will, not that it proves God's existence.

<quote author="mark">Another example of your condescension is the suggestion that we all have the "choice to accept or reject God's love", again premising the argument on the assumption that God exists.</quote>

See response to first quote

John -

"don’t you think religion has caused (or been the justification for) an awful lot of human suffering?"

I think that *humans* have been the cause for an awful lot of human suffering.

It doesn't matter what it is - humans are behind it.

Take slavery - justifying it by deciding that people from certain part of the world *wern't actually people*? That's really something.

The vast majority of religious people I know would never use religion as a justification for causing others to suffer. They might occasionaly push for things (anti gay marriage, for example) that can hurt others, but we *all* do that.

Rory,
You just let the Jinni out-of the bottle! You do like to pick controversial topics, don’t you?

Now, I do look over your blog once in awhile, but it does not mean I enjoy all of the humor and ideas you share with us and that is my right. You, on the other hand, have rights to express freely your thoughts and ideas and that’s what makes this interesting.

For folks who do not read my blog (www.ipattern.com) I want to make clear that I do believe in Christ Jesus Christ as my Savior and King and that the decision that I made freely a long time ago. Nor you change my believer neither I will push it down your throat. The time and opportunity will be presented to you Rory, the past experience is unfortunate. I personally, do not in favor of knocking onto people doors and “SELLING CHRIST”. It should not be the case. So, I agree with the frustration Rory had over his experience.

Why do I live? What is the purpose of my life? We all ask ourselves this question and we choose different answers. Book of Ecclesiastes is a great one to read, so if you did not read take 10min it is not long at all and easy to follow!

Solomon said “I have seen all the things that are done under the sun; all of them are meaningless, a chasing after the wind.”

Find your own answer; I hope it will be the right one!

Stuart -

I was wondering when you'd chime in :)

"I just wanted to point out that the part about everything you just said being God's will because He is omnipotent is faulty theology. I'm not sure if you were thinking that this is the Chrisitian world view or that it should be or something else entirely, but omnipotency does not preclude free will; it's entirely possible that neither the zombies in their proselytizing nor you in your writing were fulfilling the will of God."

If God is really omniscient, and if he's really omnipotent, but if there's still room for free will, it doesn't get him off the hook.

Being omniscient, he *knew* that my sister would be deaf and that my mother would have a stroke. Being omnipotent, he could have done something to stop these things from happening.

However, he did neither.

And I honestly don't want to hear an argument about how God "works in mysterious ways." I judge on action. If I go kill a few people, or render a few people blind, deaf, or whatever, then I'm not going to be allowed to get off by simply saying, "Well, it's all part of my master plan which is for the good of all mankind." I'll get thrown in prison.

I also don't want to put words into God's mouth. I have no idea what he's thinking. That it's part of some master plan, as far as I know, is just blasphemy.

The end result?

I have beef with God.

AnotherFormerRoryFan -

"However I would expect you to understand that only because we can't rationally explain something with our limited knowledge doesn't mean that an explanation doesn't exist."

That's quite a leap. Maybe Hitler had a *really good* reason for wanted to slaughter Jews, but we just don't know what it was. Maybe he *did* possess a superior intellect, and most of us just can't quite grasp his brilliance.

"I hope one day you will understand."

Well, if you provided more information so that I could make a proper judgment, then I could tell you whether or not I could ever understand.

However, it's this lack of information that leads me to be confused in the first place, and the implication that I'll never have it that leaves me cold. I just don't have any faith.

TomB -

"There's a study about your site's readers?This study pegs 9 out of 10 of us to be easily offended? Where is this study?"

Sorry :) Should've been clearer.

It was a study that I found in Skeptic (magazine) which confirmed something that seems to be unchanging from year to year: Nine out of Ten people believe in some sort of god.

Stuart -

"And so it turns out that people suck"

*Yes* :)

Rory, you ever considered that maybe there is a God and he made your sister deaf and gave your brother a stroke just because he wanted to? Maybe he didn't want you in his heaven, so he did it just to tick you off? There is a lot of debate in Christian communities about whether only a select group of people can even get into heaven in the first place because they have been chosen and you have not. If this was indeed the case, nothing you have said goes .001% to proving that Christianity is wrong, only that you might destined to end up in hell and there is nothing you can do about it... wouldn't that suck. The argument that "I don't like God because he hurt my feelings" is an idiotic one. The bible defines faith as believing in things you have not seen and being certain of what you hope for. The biblical definition of faith assumes that there is significant weight on both sides of the issue... in fact, I would go so far as to say that the bible makes the case that the evidence against God is very conviencing in order that faith in him might mean anything at all. The bible also makes the claim that whether you believe or not, God who created you in the first place, would be perfectly justified in smiting you and sending you to hell at any moment. After all, he created you and gave you the privledge of life and he can do whatever the hell he wants with you to entertain himself and bring himself glory. If that glory is brought by saying, "you disobey me, now burn in hell!" or it is brought by saying, "you obeyed me, come play in heaven" it is still brought regardless.

In any case, I'm not sure what side of the fence I stand on, but I do think that at least this argument against God is pretty lame.

Time to Repent!

LEVITICUS CHAPTER 5

1: "If any one sins in that he hears a public adjuration to testify and though he is a witness, whether he has seen or come to know the matter, yet does not speak, he shall bear his iniquity.
2: Or if any one touches an unclean thing, whether the carcass of an unclean beast or a carcass of unclean cattle or a carcass of unclean swarming things, and it is hidden from him, and he has become unclean, he shall be guilty.
3: Or if he touches human uncleanness, of whatever sort the uncleanness may be with which one becomes unclean, and it is hidden from him, when he comes to know it he shall be guilty.
4: Or if any one utters with his lips a rash oath to do evil or to do good, any sort of rash oath that men swear, and it is hidden from him, when he comes to know it he shall in any of these be guilty.
5: When a man is guilty in any of these, he shall confess the sin he has committed,
6: and he shall bring his guilt offering to the LORD for the sin which he has committed, a female from the flock, a lamb or a goat, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin.
7: "But if he cannot afford a lamb, then he shall bring, as his guilt offering to the LORD for the sin which he has committed, two turtledoves or two young pigeons, one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering.
8: He shall bring them to the priest, who shall offer first the one for the sin offering; he shall wring its head from its neck, but shall not sever it,
9: and he shall sprinkle some of the blood of the sin offering on the side of the altar, while the rest of the blood shall be drained out at the base of the altar; it is a sin offering.
10: Then he shall offer the second for a burnt offering according to the ordinance; and the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed, and he shall be forgiven.
11: "But if he cannot afford two turtledoves or two young pigeons, then he shall bring, as his offering for the sin which he has committed, a tenth of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering; he shall put no oil upon it, and shall put no frankincense on it, for it is a sin offering.
12: And he shall bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take a handful of it as its memorial portion and burn this on the altar, upon the offerings by fire to the LORD; it is a sin offering.
13: Thus the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed in any one of these things, and he shall be forgiven. And the remainder shall be for the priest, as in the cereal offering."

Do you think you can get over 100 responses on this? that would be cool.

You are over half way there.

I have nothing to add besides another tick mark on the board.

Rory -

Sooooooo, you do believe in God. You're just angry with Him.

That's certainly understandable. When one has experienced loss, it's very hard to see God.

I struggle with how to put this.

I don't believe God is vengeful or sadistic, letting 'bad things happen to good people' just to watch us squirm like ants under a microscope on a sunny day. Did it ever occur to you that you should be thankful for your sister, whatever her situation? Did it ever occur to you that you should be thankful that your mother is alive today? I didn't get that chance, my favorite uncle died in his sleep. His heart exploded. Do I hold God responsible for that? No, I don't. That's just the human condition. Human life is frail and imperfect. Now, I certainly didn't thank God for taking my uncle away. I thanked him for the time that I was able to spend with him while he was here. When you enter a place where you thank God everyday for the things you have, your family, the breath in your lungs, everything; you end up living life,taking advantage of every minute and paying attention to the important things instead of writing your existence (and that of others) off to a cosmic twist of faith.

Think of it this way, if there was no disease, loss or hardship what would we need God for? Why would we need to thank Him for what we do have?

Christianity isn't about hanging out outside technical conferences, waiting to jump an unsuspecting geek. It's about creating a personal relationship with God and searching for answers to life's questions in Him.

- Rick

Stuart: You are correct when you say "Just to set the record straight in this matter, a mature Christian knows that there is nothing at all one can do to earn salvation. In fact, that's essentially the whole point of Christianity.". But, you are using that to prove my theology is incorrect?

A knowledgeable Christian knows that you can't "earn" salvation (through good deeds and such) but you are given salvation if you confess your sins and turn to the Lord (which is what I was suggesting the crazy San Diego nine were probably trying to get Rory to do). The Bible is filled with passages such as Isaiah 55:7 which says "Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the Lord, and he [God] will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon."

What does that quote from Laviticus have to do with anything?

(another tick to get to 100)

Jesse -

"Rory, you ever considered that maybe there is a God and he made your sister deaf and gave your brother a stroke just because he wanted to?"

It was my mother, and yes - I have considered that. It doesn't exactly win me over.

"Maybe he didn't want you in his heaven, so he did it just to tick you off?"

I didn't realize I was so important to God that he'd take time out of his busy day just to make me miserable.

I'm somebody!

"There is a lot of debate in Christian communities about whether only a select group of people can even get into heaven in the first place because they have been chosen and you have not."

Sounds like the Microsoft MVP program.

"you might destined to end up in hell and there is nothing you can do about it... wouldn't that suck."

I'd be where Oscar Wilde went, and that would be just fine with me.

"The argument that 'I don't like God because he hurt my feelings' is an idiotic one."

Huh. Well, tell me how you *really* feel, Jesse.

Anyway, having my feelings hurt and watching my mother recover from a stroke are very different things.

*You*, for example, have "hurt my feelings" in the past, but I still listen to you, and I certainly don't have issues with you. It's the sort of thing that I can shrug off. My mother's ordeal is entirely different.

However, if you came along and rendered my sister deaf, it would be a whole different story. I couldn't just "shrug it off."

"The bible defines faith as believing in things you have not seen and being certain of what you hope for."

So, I'm supposed to spend my whole life kissing God's ass in the hopes that I'm one of the Chosen who will be let into heaven?

No thanks.

"...God who created you in the first place, would be perfectly justified in smiting you and sending you to hell at any moment."

I used to ask God to do this while at the dinner table, but he never did. He's a stubborn guy.

I also asked him to strike me down with lightning while on my walk home from the school bus stop, but he didn't do it then, either.

I just wanted to see if he was listening.

"...I do think that at least this argument against God is pretty lame."

I don't see what's lame about it. If God is really responsible for my sister's deafness and my mother's stroke, then I have some things I'd like to discuss with him.

If someone scraped the bumper of my car and drove off without leaving a note, I'd be pissed off then, too.

This is a much larger issue than that.

<quote author="Jesse Ezell">Maybe he didn't want you in his heaven, so he did it just to tick you off?</quote>

the Bible is very clear that God wants everyone to go to heaven.

<quote author="jesse Ezell">The bible also makes the claim that whether you believe or not, God who created you in the first place, would be perfectly justified in smiting you and sending you to hell at any moment.</quote>

If you read the new testment it is very clear that God isn't in the business of smiting people. Also, God doesnt send people to hell, its a choice that is made by people.

My favorite site to deal with the ungodly on the internet. You could use some saving BTW. Remember the internet was set up by a Christian country and is for Christians only!


http://objective.jesussave.us/shutdown.html

Watch out!

Last month my aunt told my dad that she would pray for him.

Two weeks later he had a heart attack.

"I don't see what's lame about it. If God is really responsible for my sister's deafness and my mother's stroke, then I have some things I'd like to discuss with him."

Now, this is good stuff.

Didn't Jesus say somewhere that he is not ruler of this world? (I saw that in the Passion movie).

Doesn't that mean that the Prince of Darkness (devil?) is the ruler here on earth?

I ain't no priest, but I don't think a beef that goes on in this world is God's "fault" so to speak.... at least not according to the "Passion" and some things that Jesus said.

And just in case anyone is trying to get anything out of my comment it is only to fill a space until we get to 100 feedbacks.

From your commentary:

"'There is a lot of debate in Christian communities about whether only a select group of people can even get into heaven in the first place because they have been chosen and you have not.'

Sounds like the Microsoft MVP program."

That is hilarious. You funny man. Crazy how many people come out to comment on something like this, isn't it? And apparently some of them think you are now *more* open to having it shoved down your throat, since I see many still trying to do just that . . .

I think you should have done this whole episode as a cartoon, you could have made it really funny . . . I do think you can be grateful though that the group did not pull a gun on you or something . . .

Rick -

"Sooooooo, you do believe in God. You're just angry with Him."

I don't believe in any god (I'm an atheist), but it's sometimes easier to discuss these things as though I *did*.

I guess the point I was making was that I had no intention of converting to a religion that I felt revered a god who would have been responsible for a whole lot of badness.

"Did it ever occur to you that you should be thankful for your sister, whatever her situation?"

Of course. I just wish she didn't have to grow up dealing with all the crap that came her way. She's done extremely well in spite of the deafness, but that doesn't make up for it. If God exists, then I'm not willing to shrug it off.

Otherwise, I just see it as the "luck of the draw." Her hand was a little more difficult than some people's.

"Did it ever occur to you that you should be thankful that your mother is alive today?"

I would be more thankful if she had never had the stroke.

As it is, though, there is no blame or fault.

If, on the other hand, I believed in God, *I would blame him*.

"I didn't get that chance, my favorite uncle died in his sleep. His heart exploded. Do I hold God responsible for that? No, I don't. That's just the human condition. Human life is frail and imperfect."

If God created humans, then God created them frail and imperfect, which means that God is responsible.

If my laptop breaks, I'm not going to let it go simply because laptops are frail and imperfect. I'm going to call up Acer and raise some hell.

"Now, I certainly didn't thank God for taking my uncle away. I thanked him for the time that I was able to spend with him while he was here."

And that's your choice. I can respect that. It isn't the way I would have reacted, but I can see why someone would.

"When you enter a place where you thank God everyday for the things you have, your family, the breath in your lungs, everything; you end up living life,taking advantage of every minute and paying attention to the important things instead of writing your existence (and that of others) off to a cosmic twist of faith."

My lack of faith in any god has in no way prevented me from "living life." I live differently, but it's still living. I appreciate things in my own way.

"Think of it this way, if there was no disease, loss or hardship what would we need God for? Why would we need to thank Him for what we do have?"

The way you're stating this makes God a necessary component if I want to be able to be thankful for "what we do have."

I'm *very* glad that I don't have some horrible disease. I wish my vascular system were such that it didn't cause me to go blind on occasion, "fog" up my thoughts for days at a time, or whatever, but I realize that it could be worse.

I don't *need* God in order to have that appreciation. God, although a component which works out well in your life for providing perspective, isn't a *necessary* component for providing that perspective in my life. I'm glad I haven't had to go through what I've seen other people go through, and I'm sans religion.

"Christianity isn't about hanging out outside technical conferences, waiting to jump an unsuspecting geek. It's about creating a personal relationship with God and searching for answers to life's questions in Him."

*That* I agree with. That was my point about Jesus not being a used car. I may not believe in God, but I think it's really creepy when people try to sell him like a piece of property. It cheapens religion for *them*.

Josh,
If the bible was very clear that God wanted everyone in heaven, then why are there Calvinists? :-) Also, you obviously don't know your bible very well, read Romans chapter 9:

11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[4] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[5]
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[6] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[7] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[8] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory--

I didn't say that he did, just that the bible makes the claim that IF he did, he would be perfectly justified.

Rory,

I agree that the image that most Christians project of God as the big sugar daddy in the sky is clearly wrong when you look at what goes on in the world. My point was merely that a Christian view of God doesn't prevent God from doing things like smiting people if he wants to, nor does it give God any accountability to you. He doesn't have any obiligation to answer any of your prayers, or even to tell you he is ignoring you. He can do whatever the hell he wants, because he is God. If this ticks you off, so what, it doesn't have any bearing on whether or not God exists or Christianity is wrong--though, it might mean that a good number of Christians themselves are wrong :-).

I wouldn't normally comment on these kinds of entries, but you made a statement that shows a grave error in your understanding of God. You said, "Note: If anybody is offended by this, then remember that God in his omnipotence is entirely responsible for my having said what I've just said - this was all God's will."

You have free will. You are not a puppet. I am not a puppet. While it is true that Christians believe that God has the power to do anything, he has given us the gift of free will, which puts a lot of responsibility on us, and we shouldn't always blame God.

It's complicated. I don't always understand it. But I believe it.

Rory,

If I thought you were a sincere seeker, wrestling with the problem of evil... I'd recommend that you go read Leibniz's "Theodicy". But as it strikes me, you've simply written God off for good; and you don't care one iota what any of these people responding to you believe or don't believe. so I'm not going to waste my time saying much of anything, and I humbly recommend that other's follow suit.

Is it getting hot in here?

Rory -

"I don't believe in any god (I'm an atheist), but it's sometimes easier to discuss these things as though I *did*."

Just seems like you have a lot of pent-up anger and frustration for an entity that you don't believe is real. Just seems illogical to me.

"I don't *need* God in order to have that appreciation. God, although a component which works out well in your life for providing perspective, isn't a *necessary* component for providing that perspective in my life."

I think the first few words describe what this is about (didn't want to deliberatly take it out of context, so I included the whole sentence), for you and lots of people.

You (generally speaking now) don't *need* God. You're homosapien 1.0, lord of all you survey, you've got it figured out.

I don't *use* God to provide perspective. God *gives* me perspective. There's a big difference, me thinks.

Jesse -

"My point was merely that a Christian view of God doesn't prevent God from doing things like smiting people if he wants to"

I'm not contesting that.

"nor does it give God any accountability to you."

I believe it does, but that's just the way I see things. I know that there's a host of nine million page philosophical writings "proving" me wrong, but I don't have to buy it.

"He doesn't have any obiligation to answer any of your prayers, or even to tell you he is ignoring you."

Agreed. And I think that's lame.

That's all I'm saying.

"He can do whatever the hell he wants, because he is God."

Again, agreed. I'm just saying that I don't like the idea.

"If this ticks you off, so what, it doesn't have any bearing on whether or not God exists or Christianity is wrong"

And I never argued otherwise.

hurcane -

"You have free will. You are not a puppet. I am not a puppet."

It would be impossible to tell the difference between having free will and having something that *seems* to be free will.

You can *convince* me that I either have or do not have free will, but you can't prove it.

So, I can just as rightly say that you *are* a puppet (and that I am as well).

"While it is true that Christians believe that God has the power to do anything, he has given us the gift of free will"

See, though, I don't believe in God. Therefore, I don't believe he's given us free will.

That doesn't say anything about whether or not I believe free will exists, but it does say that I don't take it as a given.

"which puts a lot of responsibility on us, and we shouldn't always blame God."

If you believe in God, then you believe that he put you here. In my book, that makes God responsible.

adampt -

"If I thought you were a sincere seeker, wrestling with the problem of evil... I'd recommend that you go read Leibniz's 'Theodicy'. But as it strikes me, you've simply written God off for good"

It's true that I've "written God off for good." I went to a religious school in my youth and had more than enough time while attending chapel several times each week to decide what I thought about this whole God thing.

That aside, you're implying that "wrestling with the problem of evil" is somehow tied to a belief in God. I certainly don't agree. Please let me know if I've misunderstood.

"and you don't care one iota what any of these people responding to you believe or don't believe."

If I didn't care, then I wouldn't be here myself. I find the conversation interesting and stimulating. When it ceases to be so, I'll walk away.

"so I'm not going to waste my time saying much of anything, and I humbly recommend that other's follow suit."

I honestly don't mean any offense, but I have doubts that people are going to listen to that. Discussions like these *are* interesting. They're thought-provoking. We won't solve anything, but it's always fascinating to see things from other people's perspectives.

I don't expect to "convert" anybody here to my way of thinking anymore than I expect to convert anybody else - nor would I want to. If we didn't have people on this planet who believed in God and those who didn't, then this discussion wouldn't be happening, and it might just be another ho-hum day.

At least like this we can get our neurons in a nice tangled mess, which beats watching TV.

Rory -

"Just seems like you have a lot of pent-up anger and frustration for an entity that you don't believe is real."

The "pent-up anger and frustration" is a result of people wanting me to believe in and accept a deity who would be responsible for a whole lot of very uncool business.

It's like saying, "Meet your mother's killer. Maybe you guys should go golfing."

"Just seems illogical to me."

Belief in an entity of any kind for which there is absolutely *no* proof, and dedication of a substantial part of one's life to that deity, seems illogical to *me*. To go further, justifying the actions of that deity when some of those actions are clearly harmful seems even more illogical.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't believe, but if you're on the side of the believers, then it's best to not bring logic into the argument. I think that's, in part, what faith is all about.

"I don't *use* God to provide perspective. God *gives* me perspective. There's a big difference, me thinks."

And I have perspective without God, which is one of the many reasons I see him as an unnecessary argument. There isn't anything that I can't explain for myself that requires the introduction of the concept of a god.

I naturally prefer simple explanations and simple solutions. God is *not* a simple explanation or solution for my questions.

Rick -

Wanted to add one more thing :)

"You're homosapien 1.0, lord of all you survey, you've got it figured out."

I actually am not under the impression that I've "got it figured out." The more I "know," actually, the more I realize that I don't know much of anything.

And I'm glad. Life would be extremely boring if I knew it all.

Hmmm, which to person to reply to.

Rory,
You have a perfect right to be a little pissed at those ten people, they have a lack of tact to say the least. I am a christian and I would never do that, I would show Christ in how I treat you and live my daily life. I am not offended by what you said, actually I used to say it a lot, you have every right to take that stance. I just believe that one day we all will answer for our stance right or wrong.

John,
Heh. Just kidding. ;) (yeah, bad joke, I know.. but don’t you think religion has caused (or been the justification for) an awful lot of human suffering?)

Heck dude, i figured a whole lot more people had suffered under socialism / communism in the USSR, China, Cambodia, North Korea, Laos, Nepal, Vietnam, Cuba, etc than under any religion much less Christianity. But then I guess the millions who died in the killing fields, gulags, forced migration back to the farms, killing of all land owner / degreed dont count because the socialist in the good old US havent had a chance to try their hand at it.


Josh,
Maybe you should get some religion maybe it would get your mind somewhere above your crotch. ( and for anyone who that offends, it was meant to be. ) Us Christians aint perfect.

Someone ( I lost track of who and am too lazy to scroll back up again ) said something about education is anathema to faith. hmm I guess with my three bachelors at 3.67 and Masters at 3.5 im just too stupid to be educated because I still have faith.

Rory,
God didnt cause your mothers stroke, or your sisters deafness. The fact that DNA breaks down over time and looses information caused that. According to my Bible, God made that DNA perfect and we ( Adam ) decided to reject him so instead of having the spring rewound every so often like a watch (or new batteries if you got a fancy watch), God was unable to fix those things that went wrong because of that rejection.

Sorry if this makes you feel like Im pushing my religion beliefs down your throat, you can believe what you want no skin off my nose, just attempting to explain what I think are your misconceptions about what the Bible says.


And last DUDE if your mad about your sister being deaf, why the heck aint you mad about those deformities in your eyes. Man that must be hard to focus with such a huge set of eyelasches.

Hope you make it to 100 replys, i lost count becuase my faith dont allow me to be educated enough to count that high.

There is an excellent column on the zeal and unquestioning devotion of members of religious groups. This writer suggests that because of our intelligence we are "hard wired" to attempt to attribute what we can't understand to some form of unseen force. It's very interesting and it's called:
"Ending Biblical Brainwash...For better mental and cultural health, it's time we classified religious fundamentalism as a psychological disorder."
By George Dvorsky
Sounds kinda rough, but it's a very interesting point of view.

http://www.betterhumans.com/Features/Columns/Transitory_Human/column.aspx?articleID=2002-12-15-2

Jimmy -

"God didnt cause your mothers stroke, or your sisters deafness. The fact that DNA breaks down over time and looses information caused that. According to my Bible, God made that DNA perfect and we ( Adam ) decided to reject him so instead of having the spring rewound every so often like a watch (or new batteries if you got a fancy watch)"

God created man and the garden of Eden. He created it with that tempting tree.

He created *everything*. And he's omniscient. He *knew* what would happen. From the tree to the stroke, he was aware of everything.

I blame God.

"God was unable to fix those things that went wrong because of that rejection."

Unable? So God *isn't* omnipotent?

"The "pent-up anger and frustration" is a result of people wanting me to believe in and accept a deity who would be responsible for a whole lot of very uncool business. "

Okay, so you're into blaming everything that's bad in the world on God, *should he exist*. So if God doesn't exist (as you believe), why do bad things happen (i.e the situations with your sister and mother)?

"It's like saying, "Meet your mother's killer. Maybe you guys should go golfing.""

Okay, now that's rediculous.


We don't agree, but that doesn't mean we can't get along and have these discussions as you've said. Faith is extremely difficult to explain to one that has none. If it was provable, it wouldn't be faith.

Man, for somebody who doesn't believe in God. You sure sound like you do!

(sorry can't get over the repeated contradiction)

Rick -

"So if God doesn't exist (as you believe), why do bad things happen (i.e the situations with your sister and mother)?"

First of all, they're only "bad" because we say they are. On one level, I'm hurt, but on another, I understand that nature doesn't make any promises and that it's according to a set of laws.

Things break down. Entropy. Poor manufacturing. My mother's vascular system sucks. Mine does too. These things happen.

When I remove God from the argument, it's just nature. I can accept it. I'm a human, and I have emotions which cause me to think of these things as "bad," but in an intellectual sense it's not hard to swallow.

"'It's like saying, 'Meet your mother's killer. Maybe you guys should go golfing.''

Okay, now that's rediculous."

I don't think so. If you found God responsible for the goings on in the world the way I do, then you'd see that it's *not* all that ridiculous. It's unusual, yes, but not ridiculous. To me, meeting someone who were directly to blame for some pain in my life and meeting God would be no different. But that's just the way I see it.

"We don't agree, but that doesn't mean we can't get along and have these discussions as you've said."

We *are* getting along :)

I obviously have a very different perspective than you do, though. As I noted a few paragraphs back, I'm serious about the "meet your mother's killer" example. That *really* is how I think about this. It's not just some flippant answer.

"Faith is extremely difficult to explain to one that has none. If it was provable, it wouldn't be faith."

I've had faith, though. That's how I know it doesn't work for me. When I was very young, I was taught to believe in God, to hate the Devil, etc. It took a few years, but I eventually learned how *I* really felt about these things, and faith left my life forever.

Rick -

"Man, for somebody who doesn't believe in God. You sure sound like you do!"

What I'm doing is putting myself into the shoes of a believe - I'm kind of role playing. This *is* how I would see the world *if* I believed in God.

I'm not interested in converting anybody, but I'm perfectly happy to demonstrate some of the many reasons I'm not willing to accept religion into my life (Christianity and its offspring in particular).

When these discussions take place, it's most often a "*My* team is better than *your* team because......."

What I'm doing is, rather than saying why I think *my* team is better, showing why I don't want to be a part of *your* team.

If my goal were to convert, I'd take a different approach. My goal, though, is to explain my own personal reasons for not believing.

As far as I'm concerned, religious people are trying to cheat death. At some point in our lives we all realize that we're going to die. It scares the shit out of us, as it should. Most of us don't want to deal with that. We turn to religion, which tells us that there is life after death. You can spend the rest of your life denying that you're going to die, and will remain dead forever, or you can learn to deal with it. I don't need God telling me what not to do. I choose to live a moral life because I could fucking die tomorrow and I want to spend the rest of my lifetime doing the best I can.

The end.

Hi...umm...is this the post about the ugly shirt? (I think I'm in the wrong place). Man, that's one ugly shirt...well, ok then.

Catatonic -

"As far as I'm concerned, religious people are trying to cheat death."

That's a bit of an oversimplification :)

Different religions have sprung up for many different reasons. Some were invented in the 60s as a result of doing too much LSD, others have come out of agricultural practices, and still many more.

Religion in general is much more complicated than one simple desire.

"At some point in our lives we all realize that we're going to die. It scares the shit out of us, as it should. Most of us don't want to deal with that. We turn to religion, which tells us that there is life after death."

Again, I don't really agree.

If we talk Christianity, then we're talking about a religion that offers something even *worse* than death.

Now, many Christians don't believe in hell or the devil, but those who do are probably pretty freaked out.

I know that *I'd* much rather die and just be dead than spend eternity suffering in hell. But, when I was younger, hell was drilled into me. It was a very "real" option to heaven, and it came along with the religion that was also being drilled into me.

So, some Christians are brave in the sense that they're willing to risk what they believe to be a very real threat (hell) in the hope that they'll make it to heaven. Plain old death sounds much more tolerable than eternal pain.

Joe -

"Hi...umm...is this the post about the ugly shirt? (I think I'm in the wrong place). Man, that's one ugly shirt...well, ok then."

OK :) You've got me laughing out loud at the convention center...

>> Belief in an entity of any kind for which there is absolutely *no* proof, and dedication of a substantial part of one's life to that deity, seems illogical to *me*. <<

I think we can all agree on this sentiment. Believing blindly in something for which there is no proof would be foolish, indeed. What's interesting (to me anyway) is that Christianity is one of the few religions (maybe the only one?) that doesn't demand such belief.

Because there *is* proof, you see -- historical proof, philosophical proof, experiential proof, etc. Clearly the proof that exists will not persuade everyone. Obviously some (many? all?) of the proofs may be explained away by conspiracy theories and such. And so here is where faith matters.

Everyone will make a decision; how informed that decision will be depends on the person making the decision.

Rory, you say that you've written God off for good, and I believe you are sincere when you say that. The thing is, though, that if you are the least bit reasonable (and I know you are), there exists a possibility that through some turn of events small or great that you will encounter one of these proofs that changes your whole perspective. Or maybe a proof that you dismissed at one point will take on new meaning and change your whole perspective. Or maybe your perspective will never change. ::shrug::

All I know is that if someone would have told me ten years ago that I would fall into something as ridiculous, boring, and intellecutally fallow as Christianity, I would have slugged him.

Life -- she is a strange mistress, no?