in Search
Welcome to Neopoleon - Sign in | Join | Help
Navigation: Home | Forums | Galleries

XNA - Restoring the Intimacy and Fun of Game Development

I have this image in my head of game development the way it used to be. The image is the result of years of my brain distorting a photo I once saw of Scott Adams (the game designer - not the cartoonist). What I have left in my head tells me that it was either the late 70s or the early 80s. He was a white man with a big white man's afro. He wore glasses of the nerdiest possible type. They were thick and square, and very likely not manufactured by Prada.

From what I can tell, and this might be my brain romanticizing the image, Scott is sitting in front of an early PC, and he's up in an attic. Or down in a basement. I can't tell which, but the walls are made of that old school wood paneling that so many people find offensive, but which I find warm and evocative of thoughts of my childhood, back when wood paneling was everywhere, along with shag carpeting and big ugly American cars like the El Camino.

I love this image of Scott. He's alone, except for the photographer, and busily writing one of his many text adventure games. Looking at him and his operation, one gets the feeling that he sold his wares through the ads in the back of an enthusiast magazine, or at meetings of local computer clubs. He was a pioneer, working on a frontier that had yet to be trampled by big business. He was the club show before there was enough of an audience to fill an arena.

I have another image in my head of game development, but this time, it's very different. It's of a team on the scale of a major motion picture production, slaving away into the night, underpaid, overworked, miserable, and uninspired. They're working on a game that has a commercial tie-in. Maybe a movie. Maybe a toy.

They're slaving away at their machines, each person contributing a bit of sweat here and there to someone else's ambitious vision. They don't see their families for months, they're sick from stress, their relationships are suffering, and they're miserable. It's a very different scene from Scott's world. It's crowded and full of grumpy people. This is the arena show where people are passing out from exhaustion, the lines are long, and the food is terrible.

Scott was in control of his own vision from start to finish. He crafted the story. He crafted the code. He wrote the prose that drew images in the mind of the player. He was everything to his projects.

Sadly, the world in which Scott lived disappeared years ago. Video game budgets now rival those of Hollywood special effects ridden blockbusters. If you get to work on a game nowadays, you're lucky if you get to be the animator of some minor character's mouth movements. And, after you've done that for several years, you'll drop out of the game, totally burned out, and the corporation will replace you with another eager newcomer who, like you, won't command a large salary. He or she will enter the industry for the love of the craft, and leave the industry wanting nothing more than a quiet job operating the deep fryer at a fast food restaurant.

Rather bleak, eh? Yeah. It is.

But, over the past few months, some of us have been watching a technology called "XNA" creep into the scene.

XNA, if you haven't heard of it, is bloody amazing. It's basically a platform upon which hobbyist (and even professional) game developers can easily build games. Not only that, but these games can then be transferred to an Xbox 360 and run.

I'm guessing that more than a few of you are probably reacting with a "So what?" kind of attitude. And, to be honest, if you haven't followed console game development much, then that would be a perfectly normal position to take. But, this is different. Very, very different.

There have been attempts before, made by other gaming companies, to provide the casual developer with SDK's with which to produce console games. The sad thing is that these SDK's were poorly documented and a royal freaking pain in the ass to use. Bluntly stated, your entire game was a workaround. From the people I've talked to who have dabbled in these kits, I've been led to believe that dev work like this is about as fun and intuitive as climbing Mount Everest with nothing but one of your nipples. A really, really strong nipple. In other words, it wasn't fun, unless your idea of fun happened to be climbing tall, cold mountains, using but a single nipple (your own, of course - you couldn't use somebody else's nipple for the task).

That's why I'm very happy to be working at Microsoft right now.

XNA is a way of climbing Mount Everest with a proper toolkit, a bunch of friends, and no nippleage required.

And it is going to be big.

If you look at trends among the modern console gamer, you can see that there is a lot of attention paid to the "homebrew" scene. Kids will go out, blow $250 on a Sony PSP, and then use some existing tools to run things like MAME and various media players. It's funny, really. Spending almost $300 on a device so that you can play Pac-Man on it.

No big loss, though, for those of you who own a PSP. I bought mine with high hopes, but have yet to find a single game I really like (whereas my Nintendo DS Lite has made me a very happy mobile gamer).

One big problem with the Sony PSP homebrew scene (or the homebrew scene for any device) is that the manufacturer of the device either intentionally, or accidentally as a byproduct of software interacting with unexpected hacks and modifications, renders the device unusable for homebrew at best, and destroys the device at worst. There's a constant push and pull between the homebrew scene and the console manufacturers. The homebrew kids are mad because they want to run whatever software they'd like on the devices. The console makers are mad because they don't want to have to deal with all the technical and legal ramifications of people fiddling with their devices (would Ford honor your vehicle warranty if you decided to replace your car's drivetrain just for kicks? No - that's your answer - Ford wouldn't).

In XNA, Microsoft is creating a sort of compromise. Actually, it's much better than a compromise - it's an acceptance and understanding that people buy consoles and then want to run custom software on them. There's no way around it. You either provide these people with a means by which they can have their fun, or you leave your product wide open for exploitation on the black market (and the kind-of-gray market, too).

This is a big deal. The reason console makers don't want people running their own software on consoles is that nearly every modern console produced is hole into which the manufacturer shovels money by the ton. To get the consoles out to customers at a reasonable price, the manufacturer takes a hit on the cost of the hardware, hoping to make up for the loss by taking a cut of game sales. It's a big bet, and it's the sort of thing that leaves executives chewing their fingernails. In this light, it's not so hard to see why the big bad corporations want to stamp out your homebrew scene. They are, especially in Sony's case now, just trying to survive.

That's where the beauty of the XNA model comes in.

XNA Studio is available for free. With it, you get a world class IDE and a platform (based on a version of the .NET Compact Framework) against which to code. You also have model importers so that you don't have to write a bunch of nasty model loading code, and other sorts of helpers. Best of all, it's managed code and highly performant.

That's a pretty good deal for free.

Then, if you'd like to be able to develop on your 360, you pay $99, and you are now able to deploy your binaries to your console and see your own game running on a 360. I think that's pretty effing cool.

And these are Microsoft tools. The critics can say what they like, but we do a good job with dev tools. I know there are alternatives, and you're welcome to enjoy them, but our stuff, you have to admit, is pretty hot. Even if you can't tell your Java and open source friends that you like our stuff, you still know, deep down, that it's nice.

So, that's the good story for the developers. Cheap access to console development using high quality tools unlike anything ever released, all at a low price and using the same technology (.NET) you're familiar with from desktop and server work.

Now, where things get really exciting, is from the consumer perspective.

Right now, no matter which console you buy, there's going to be a commercial edge to every game you get. That's fine - a good thing in many cases. Big budgets and top talent can produce (and has produced) amazing work. Mind-boggingly complex, beautiful, unbelievable work.

The problem, as the homebrew scene has known for so long, is that it has traditionally been your only legitimate option. You have this great console, but you can only play the games on it which are released by the corporations with big budgets.

There's something missing there. This is still the arena show. There's no intimacy - not for the developers, and not for the consumers. Everything feels too perfect and polished. There's a charm in things which are imperfect. When Sting was still with the Police, he used to lay down several vocal takes side by side. It was obvious, because he didn't do a good job of repeating himself. He was always a little off in timing, and just barely acceptably out of tune. It reminded you that you were listening to a human. Compared to the sterility of today's music, all of it produced in extremely expensive and highly technological studios, the older stuff was warm. It had some ineffable quality to it that just made it more approachable and comforting. Even the sound of dust and imperfections picked up by the needle of a record player. That made a difference.

I'm pretty sure - not positive - but pretty sure that XNA is the club show. It's going to be a haven for amateurs and hobbyists. What they produce will probably be very imperfect. It definitely won't be as advanced as the work done by large studios. You won't find Gears of War, for example, popping up in the XNA hobbyist scene, but that's a good thing. Games like Gears of War are great, but people want something else, too. Games that are more accessible - simpler. Games that don't consume your life for hours on end. Casual games, weird games, and so on.

For me, it's going to dramatically raise the value of my 360. Now, in addition to all the stuff I can buy and access through Xbox Live Marketplace, I'm also going to have access to all the work produced by enthusiasts. I'll even be able to modify the stuff - play with it. For the first time in the history of the console, there is going to be a community of legitimate homebrew developers. They're going to bring back the club show and the fun that goes with it.

Some of them will get picked up by big game companies. Others will stand their ground and continue to do projects for the love of it. I have no doubt that there will eventually be a graveyard of abandoned games, much like 99% of the apps up on SourceForge, but the remaining games are going to be so special and unique that it'll be worth it.

I mean, think about it. With XNA, some crazy seventeen year old coder can now come up with whatever weird LSD-induced visions of gameplay he wants. I predict that we're going to see games that are so innovative and unique that entirely new genres will spring up.

I'm sure there are a lot of people who would disagree with me, but think about where today's big games came from. They didn't start in the game laboratories of Sony, Rare, and Bungie. They started in someone's garage, attic, or basement, and changed the world through shareware distribution. This makes sense, as innovation really can't begin in big corporate conference rooms. If EA or some other game company is going to pump millions into the production of a title, they aren't going to choose the risky game that seems different from the rest. Rather, they're going to stick with formula, and pump out variations based on that formula until all commercially produced games fit comfortably inside a handful of genres, and they all resemble each other as though part of the same genetic pool.

A hobbyist doesn't have to take on that same risk. A teenager who's experimenting doesn't have an executive staff to which he is accountable. And, best of all, it can just be you, XNA, and the code. A single person can, realistically, produce an entire game, start to finish, using XNA.

Even better, people like me who might want to make games without getting too caught up in the details can work with some of the other tools that are being built on top of XNA like Phrogram and Torque X. Both of these tools provide abstractions over XNA, making it even more accessible than it already is.

The reason I'm writing about all this tonight is that I just got back from the XNA Game Studio Express launch event. I saw some things being done that make it look as though even I, a guy who's traditionally just stuck to business apps, could make a game. I was a bit more than impressed, and I'll be putting a video of some encounters with various smarties in the industry up on Channel 9 - hopefully by the end of the week.

I even ran into George Clingerman - one of my old friends from the Portland nerd scene. He was up here because he runs a rather large, rather popular XNA site called "XNA Development: Dame Development for the masses". I got a lot of good interviews with him, some other XNA people, and even a spot with Major Nelson.

All in all, it was an inspiring evening. I was a little tired and thought about not going, thinking that I might rather go home and crash, but I'm glad I didn't.

A lot of what I saw tonight, in addition to work I had seen previously, has led me to believe that XNA is going to be a wildly popular technology, and that it's going to bring back a bit of that romanticized vision of the past I have.

With XNA, modern hobbyists, just like Scott Adams, will be able to grow their hair out, wear geeky glasses, and code by themselves in the attic or the basement, doing what they love, and not having to deal with the stress and scale of commercial development.

XNA is going to completely change the hobbyist game developer scene, and the change is going to be for the better.

Published Monday, December 11, 2006 11:03 PM by Rory

Filed Under: , ,

Comments

 

John Walker said:

Saw your Channel 9 video regarding XNA. I could not agree more. This is going to be huge.

I reall, really hope Microsoft is going to play this right with the Xbox Live side. Please, please, open this stuff so we can download XNA games for free. Make some kind of cool social networking UI where people can vote for the best games. Award game devs with a contract, monetary incentives, or something similar to get their name in lights. If they do, this will be even hugerer ;)

PS: How cool is it that this is all done with managed code?
December 11, 2006 11:55 PM
 

Fabiank2 said:

Well, you pretty much ignore that all betas of XNA are C#-only. So if I want to code for my Xbox360 I need to learn a .Net-lang, even if I already know stuff in C++ or Java.

For my PSP I have to void my warranty, ok, your point. But I can code in whatever lang I want, with a large amount of emulators for old hardware like even the ps1, and many existing great homebrews. Also there are easy to use runtimes, for witch I have to pay no money.

Sony is pretty mutch kicking their own asses for struggling with a scene witch makes the majority of their customer. I mean with only 2 not remake Games for the PSP that not sucked after 2 Hours of playing(Locco Rocco, Lumines) Homebrews are the only way to use your 250€of hardware.
December 11, 2006 11:57 PM
 

John Walker said:

Fabiank2...

If you know Java and, gosh, C++...coding in C# is going to be a cinch. You've got to familiarize yourself with the .NET framework a bit, but you'll be glad you did. It's a pleasure. It's all syntax from their, brother. Have fun with it. Let's see what you've got.
December 12, 2006 12:01 AM
 

Rory said:

Fabiank2 -

"Well, you pretty much ignore that all betas of XNA are C#-only."

No I didn't. I just didn't mention it because it isn't an issue. C# and .NET are so easy that picking it up shouldn't be a problem for any coder who is halfway decent.

You're missing the point, anyway. The point here is that there is a legitimized way of producing homebrew for a console. It's cheap, it's supported, and it's a hell of a lot nicer than developing for other platforms.

"So if I want to code for my Xbox360 I need to learn a .Net-lang, even if I already know stuff in C++ or Java."

Yeah, but if you think you can write a game that's as good as an XNA game using C++ or Java, and have that code be as *compact* as it would be with XNA, then you're nuts.

It's not just a language thing. That's so secondary to the issue. If you want to spend all your time writing games using C++, then you can do that. It'll probably take you more time just to get a single sprite on the screen using C++ and DirectX or OpenGL than it would for you to learn XNA, but whatever. That's your choice.

"For my PSP I have to void my warranty, ok, your point. But I can code in whatever lang I want, with a large amount of emulators for old hardware like even the ps1, and many existing great homebrews. Also there are easy to use runtimes, for witch I have to pay no money."

Yeah. That's a real bargain.

$250 for a game device that you intentionally cripple so that you can play games that were already old when *I* was a kid.

That's, uh... really cool.

Which reminds me - I just bought the HD-DVD add-on for my 360. My next weekend project is going to be to see if I can get it to play VHS tapes.

(See how silly that sounds now?)

And, regarding your argument that you can code in whatever language you want - I don't see how that's the case. You implied that you know C++ and Java, which means that, by "any language," you really mean C++ or Java. And that's limiting.

Then there's the issue of GDK's. What kind of kits are you going to use? The Sony ones? The ones that drove everybody *nuts*?

Have fun.

That's the point of XNA - it isn't just legal and non-warranty-voiding - it's also supposed to be a hell of a lot easier than other approaches.

While you're finding memory leaks in your C++ game, someone else is already starting another XNA project.

Anyway, if you *really* want to go the native code route, you can always join the legions of developers who code natively for the consoles. That's a perfectly valid option (if you're good enough).

"Sony is pretty mutch kicking their own asses for struggling with a scene witch makes the majority of their customer."

No they aren't.

I already discussed in this post why console makers *don't* want you to mod your consoles or start a homebrew scene.

Typically, console makers take a hit on each console sale - that is, they lose money on each sale. They make that money back in the sale of games.

Really simple.

So, if Sony were to let people continue to screw with their systems and go on with this homebrew scene, Sony isn't going to make their money back in software sales (or is less likely to make that money back).

Sony, then, is *not* "kicking [its] own [ass]" here. Sony is trying to survive, and they're going to have a much easier time doing that if they sell *fewer* devices to people as long as those people will buy software.

Money is *not* made in large volume sales of hardware. It's in the software.
December 12, 2006 12:37 AM
 

Fabiank2 said:

"You're missing the point, anyway. The point here is that there is a legitimized way of producing homebrew for a console. It's cheap, it's supported, and it's a hell of a lot nicer than developing for other platforms."

Ok, I didn't really think of it that way.

"Typically, console makers take a hit on each console sale - that is, they lose money on each sale. They make that money back in the sale of games. "

Yeah, but you can't sell games if nobody owns the console. There were already a few articles on the net how the psp-sales suck.
When I bought a PS2, the possibility of playing Backups and *maybe* homebrews was a huge factor to my decision. Not because I'm a software-pirate and want to download warez, but because of the possibility the console had. The homebrew-scene is a customer-market witch will also buy some games.

"Which reminds me - I just bought the HD-DVD add-on for my 360. My next weekend project is going to be to see if I can get it to play VHS tapes."

When you put it that way, ok, then I guess it sounds kind of silly. But Nintendo is also counting on the sales of old games with the wii.

"So, if Sony were to let people continue to screw with their systems and go on with this homebrew scene, Sony isn't going to make their money back in software sales (or is less likely to make that money back)."

Why? Do people with homebrews and emus on their psp buy fewer games? Please notice I'm not talking about ripping isos and stuff like that.

"Then there's the issue of GDK's. What kind of kits are you going to use? The Sony ones? The ones that drove everybody *nuts*?"

There is also stuff like the Lua-Player that let's you run stuff in that lang, there are freeware sdk's for firmware 1.5.


December 12, 2006 1:54 AM
 

Massif said:

XNA is pretty awesome, but what I really want is an environment where I can make vague assertions about how the game "should" be, and have it create something for me.

Plus I want to be able to change other people's games the same way ("This game should have more ducks." - and lo! there are ducks.)

I kid, it rules C# is my favourite language anyway, and besides which many of the groovy features can be used from C++ / CLI. Well, the content pipeline thingy which is absolutely the best thing ever can't, but the rest pretty much can.

Now I'll just have to drag myself away from Me and My Katamari long enough to get something useful done. So far I've drawn a sphere on that lovely blue background. (Next I want to draw a cuboid - then pong 3D here we go!)
December 12, 2006 3:10 AM
 

AndyToo said:

The awesome-est thing for me?  It's that there will be hundreds, if not thousands of more games available for the 360 within a couple of years.  I know, 95% of them will be crap, but at least I'll have plenty of games to try.

That's a big bug-bear for me, with the old Xbox and the 360 - the lack of games.  Really.  I know, there are like, 100 or so games or something, but of those there are maybe five that my wife and daughter would want to play.

So please Microsoft, as John Walker said - make these games available on Live Marketplace for FREE!  Even better for the developer, give them a really easy way to sell their games for a few bucks through the marketplace.  Then you've got a Playstation-killer console platform.
December 12, 2006 3:40 AM
 

Oliver Lippold said:

It's interesting that you mention "Rare", because they started out as a tiny company ("Ultimate Play the Game") producing some of the best games for the Sinclair ZX Spectrum in the early 80s. In fact, the whole Spectrum scheme in the UK was lots of small publishers creating hundreds of great games, which I imagine is the sort of thing you're trying to achieve now with XNA.
December 12, 2006 6:46 AM
 

Danno said:

Personally, I think the long term affect of a growing community of home-brewed, independant games will result in more creative big name titles in the future.  Take a look at home-brew movies and independant films and music sampling.  Youtube, Pandora, Lucasfilm, Lions Gate, Artisan, they produce and/or distribute content that seeps into the fabric of an entire industry.  XNA based games will be no different.   The creative minds behind these games will help to mold a whole new genre of entertainment where lines are blurred and the imagination takes over.  
December 12, 2006 7:08 AM
 

GuyIncognito said:

Can a game ever really have too many ducks?  I think not!
December 12, 2006 8:34 AM
 

engtech said:

I think they're screwing up with the subscription model. People aren't going to want to play these games on the 360 if they've never tried it.

I think what would work better is a model where some games are free, and with other games there is a split between Microsoft and the independent devs. The Geometry Wars of the homebrew scene will make money, but there is no barrier to entry.

The subscription model will essential cripple the adoption. I was big into NWN game modding for two years or so (under the handle oldmanwhistler), and there really was only around 1% of the "modules" being released that were good / worth paying any money for.

A two tier model where homebrew games are free unless the devs want to try to make money off of them (in which case, Microsoft gets a cut) would get more people into using the homebrew features.

Of course, the big argument against it is that free homebrew could be considered a competitor to Live Arcade.
December 12, 2006 8:58 AM
 

Ian said:

Oliver - same with the Amstrad scene (I still remember my CPC464 with fondness).
Who can forget the bitmap brothers before they grew too big, and firebirds classic wildbunch?!

Despite not being a console guy (I own a PSP and use it for movies and songs when I travel) this whole XNA stuff seems way cool and if it drives that kind of 1.99 UKP type games then that can only be a good thing.

It does need marketplace support for selling them though. Microsoft should do it before eBay & Paypal do..
December 12, 2006 10:00 AM
 

ShallRemainNameless said:

http://manuals.playstation.net/document/en/ps3/current/settings/osinstall.html
+
http://www.redhat.com
+
http://happypenguin.org
=
so what?

Why have a special development kit to build a game on DirectX???
You can take your OpenGL game AS IS, and run it on PS3.

BTW, I have a PS3 and IT SMOKES!!!
Got the last one at MicroPlay biotch!
December 12, 2006 11:01 AM
 

GuyIncognito said:

Once again the nerds over at slashdot seem to have everything figured out...

http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=211238&threshold=1&commentsort=0&mode=thread&pid=17203524#17204110
December 12, 2006 11:35 AM
 

Ian said:

Damn it GuyIncognito!

I followed that link and now I'm all angry again.
*What* is it with the retards that inhabit slashdot? Jesus, the comments on that entry are exactly why I stopped reading the site.

The occasional interesting article on there is just drowned out by all the 'OMG, M$ SUCKZOR" posts.
Urgh!

If it wasn't so bloody frustrating the comments would be amusing.
First you get:

"OMG M$ SUCKZORS They're charging people to develop games on their SUCKZORY con$ole. M$$$$ should just go off and DIE"

and then the very next comment is:

"OMG M$ SUCKZORS They're letting people develop games on their SUCKZORY con$ole. Sony ed:[no $ needed there (except by Sony)] should sue them for surestuff,yeah - M$ SUCKZORS. M$$$$ should just go off and DIE"

I guess it's good to see there's balanced reasoning over there in crackpot land..

Right, back to figuring out why my code won't compile on AIX (in case you thought I was biased ;-) )
December 12, 2006 12:13 PM
 

Rory said:

Massif -

"XNA is pretty awesome, but what I really want is an environment where I can make vague assertions about how the game "should" be, and have it create something for me."

Check out Torque X (linked to in the post).

Not exactly what you're talking about, but kind of close, actually.
December 12, 2006 1:47 PM
 

Rory said:

Oliver -

"It's interesting that you mention "Rare", because they started out as a tiny company ("Ultimate Play the Game") producing some of the best games for the Sinclair ZX Spectrum in the early 80s. In fact, the whole Spectrum scheme in the UK was lots of small publishers creating hundreds of great games, which I imagine is the sort of thing you're trying to achieve now with XNA."

The Rare story isn't uncommon, though. It's the same for pretty much every big name company now.

And, of course, not one of these companies has actually retained its original structure.

Companies like EA - EA used to be a really down to earth company, putting out some very charming games. Then they grew and grew and grew and grew and grew and grew... and now, if you read the famous account of the wife of an EA developer, it has turned into a rough place.

Anyway, though, the point is that a lot of these big companies started out small in the 80s.
December 12, 2006 1:49 PM
 

GuyIncognito said:

If you haven't seen this video yet, it will definitely get you pumped back up!

http://channel9.msdn.com/Showpost.aspx?postid=261254


Wow, cool!  2 words = C# on an XBOX 360!  

Wait, that's like more than two words.  It's more like some letters, a symbol and a couple numbers.  Or... a note, a TLA (FLA?) a number of degrees and a couple of noise words.


As soon as Guitar Hero comes out for the XBOX 360, I'll get one.  Maybe I could even write a Guitar Hero clone?  Or a Drum Hero?  Or Sax Hero?  Or Recorder Hero?  The possiblities are endless!  Endless I tells ya!

Of course I could have had on of those $100 XBOX 360s if Amazon had only made 1 million available instead of 1,000.


December 12, 2006 1:50 PM
 

Rory said:

engtech -

"I think they're screwing up with the subscription model. People aren't going to want to play these games on the 360 if they've never tried it."

That remains to be seen.

This is a very new thing for the console world. Right now, my guess is that the $99 charge has more to do with hardware than software.

For example, if there *does* turn out to be a really strong community of XNA devs for the 360, it *might* cut into game sales. Hard to say. So, they might be trying to reduce the loss from the sale of hardware below its value by getting it back in that fee.

Keep in mind as well that $99 is a very small price to pay to get involved with something like this. In the past, a dev kit would have put you out *MUCH* more than that. Like, a ridiculous amount.

From the consumer side, it's a different story, and it gets trickier.

First off, at least right now, to play an XNA game, you need XNA Studio. There isn't currently an infrastructure for delivering XNA binaries to people without a PC. I don't know why this is, but I'd guess that it's because there wasn't enough time to implement a solution for the consumers - XNA came together, from concept to launch, in just six months. That's an amazing turnaround. This first release is probably focused primarily on devs.

"I think what would work better is a model where some games are free, and with other games there is a split between Microsoft and the independent devs. The Geometry Wars of the homebrew scene will make money, but there is no barrier to entry."

I'd like to see that, too. So let's hope :)

"The subscription model will essential cripple the adoption. I was big into NWN game modding for two years or so (under the handle oldmanwhistler), and there really was only around 1% of the "modules" being released that were good / worth paying any money for."

There are a lot of things for which XNA could be used that I think people haven't thought of yet. It goes beyond just producing games and such.

But, you're right - the fee creates a barrier to adoption. Again, though, it remains to be seen if that barrier is going to be a big deal or not.

Remember as well that you can download XNA Game Studio Express for free and develop for a Windows machine. It only costs money to be able to deploy to a 360. Otherwise it's just free, free, free...

"Of course, the big argument against it is that free homebrew could be considered a competitor to Live Arcade."

That's another interesting issue. I have no idea what the official story is on that, but I'd like to know.

If I were to guess, I'd expect to see a division between the homebrew scene and Marketplace. Marketplace is where people go for simple, but high quality, games (or for retro games). The homebrew scene is where people go to see what kind of crazy stuff independents are doing.

They really are different markets. Hopefully, then, there won't be a clash.

December 12, 2006 2:18 PM
 

Rory said:

Fabiank2 -

"Yeah, but you can't sell games if nobody owns the console. There were already a few articles on the net how the psp-sales suck."

You also can't sell games if people are too busy modding their systems and running other games for free.

Remember what I said - selling fewer systems to people who are willing to buy games is better than selling more systems to more people who want to mod.

Sony loses money on each hardware sale (or, if lucky, breaks even eventually). The money is made up in software sales.

You have to think about the strangeness of the console market. It's a *huge* risk to sell a console nowadays because selling more consoles can actually be *bad*. Best to have a smaller and healthier market than a larger one which doesn't buy the games.

It's that simple.

"The homebrew-scene is a customer-market witch will also buy some games."

That's partially true.

But look at the PSP - people won't buy certain new games because they don't want their system ROMs to be upgraded, thereby locking them out of their homebrew fun.

So, there's a point at which they will stop buying new games so that they can maintain their ability to mod their systems.

That's not a good customer for a console maker.

"When you put it that way, ok, then I guess it sounds kind of silly. But Nintendo is also counting on the sales of old games with the wii."

Yeah, but read your own sentence: "...Nintendo is also counting on the SALES of old games..."

Nintendo is making money on these old game sales, just as MS is with Marketplace games.

It's good money, too, since it's just a matter of releasing some old game and then charging money for a download - no packaging, marketing, or distribution costs. This is a *good* thing for console makers.

I think Nintendo and MS are also trying to give customers what they want here - it's clear that there are a lot of people out there who buy these really expensive, high powered systems so they can play games that most people forgot about twenty years ago.

Rather than forcing them to mod, and therefore void their warranties and possibly brick their systems, MS and Nintendo are making old games available at a low price.

Yeah, it's imperfect - not every game you want is available.

But it's still better than nothing, and also better than possibly ruining your system.

If you still aren't satisfied with the quantity of old games available, then you can always just grab MAME and run it on either a PC or some other, older modded console.

"Why? Do people with homebrews and emus on their psp buy fewer games? Please notice I'm not talking about ripping isos and stuff like that."

Yes - they buy fewer games.

I've read the forums. A lot of people are downloading ripped games, for one thing.

For another, as I pointed out earlier, they can't play new games that force them to upgrade their firmware because they'll get locked out of their homebrew.

So, they'll play whatever games they can download, and they'll wait for workarounds to the latest OS upgrade to be able to play newer games - that they've downloaded.

There's a lot of "backups" going around in the PSP world.

"There is also stuff like the Lua-Player that let's you run stuff in that lang, there are freeware sdk's for firmware 1.5."

Right.

But none of this stuff is going to be as nice, accessible, or easy to use as XNA.

If the stories I've heard about developing on Sony hardware are true, then it must be a total pain in the ass.

And, if the SDKs are also from the homebrew scene, there's probably a lot lacking.

Kind of like the people who run their PS3s in Linux mode and do a bit of work. They've learned that they can't access the video card - just the software frame buffer.

So, the games they can make are very limited. No hardware acceleration - just software rendering.

XNA is different.

Very, very different.
December 12, 2006 2:30 PM
 

Rory said:

"ShallRemainNameless" -

"Why have a special development kit to build a game on DirectX???"

So that you can have good tools instead of the shitty ones you're used to using.

Also, this isn't just a "special development kit" - it's *managed* code, running on the 360 while being very performant. That's the big deal. It's much, much more accessible to developers than having to deal with C++ (for example).

It lowers the bar of entry for game devs. Now, you don't have to labor away in some arcane and ugly language just to make a game. You can use a nice, clean, modern language like C#.

"You can take your OpenGL game AS IS, and run it on PS3."

Unless you have access a mod I haven't heard of, you're stuck with the same situation everybody else is: Software rendering.

Yeah, you can boot up to that funny little Linux they've got on the PS3, but they very explicitly *do not* give you access to the video card. All you get access to is a software frame buffer.

In other words, developing for the PS3, whether you're a pro or a hobbyist, is a royal pain in the ass. The pros complain about the system architecture (the whole "cell" thing sounds great in the marketing crap, but when people actually have to deal with it, it's not so wonderful after all).

And, as I already pointed out, hobbyists get screwed because they're stuck with software rendering. Good luck getting anything performant out of that.

"BTW, I have a PS3 and IT SMOKES!!!
Got the last one at MicroPlay biotch!"

Congrats. My 360's a year old, and it renders Call of Duty 3 without dropping frames left and right the way the PS3 does.

Enjoy your overpriced, rumble-free, hard-to-code-for console, "biotch".
December 12, 2006 2:44 PM
 

ShallRemainNameless said:

You can still run 2d games just fine, even with the vesa driver. You can run games on Xvfb if you want to. You are not confined to a small development box for unsigned code with the PS3.

"Enjoy your overpriced, rumble-free, hard-to-code-for console, "biotch"."

Enjoy your controller that does not have gyroscope functionality.

When I play call of duty 3 and a soldier jumps on me. I can shake the controller from side to side, and throw that soldier off. You can't.
PS3's controller has the same functionality as the wii.

Oh, by the way, you get a blu-ray disc, Talladega Nights, free with the PS3, and a HDD. No high def movie player for the 360 and the games have to fit on a single dual layer dvd or go to multiple disc media or downloads, and that can be a pain.

Did I mention that the Playstation Online gameplay is completely and utterly free of charge???

Well I'm mentioning it now. Yes, I like Sony. The PS3 also works with the PSP.
December 12, 2006 6:29 PM
 

Master Control said:

Two demerits for not making the obligatory "Space Paranoids" reference.
December 12, 2006 6:47 PM
 

Rory said:

"ShallRemainNameless" -

"You can still run 2d games just fine, even with the vesa driver."

Cool. 2d games.

Can't imagine why anybody would want the convenience of XNA.

Oh, wait - maybe for that pesky third dimension, the ease of development, Microsoft support, and a nice IDE.

But, that's cool. 2d. Yeah. Really cool...

"When I play call of duty 3 and a soldier jumps on me. I can shake the controller from side to side, and throw that soldier off."

Something to distract you from the bad framerate :)

"Oh, by the way, you get a blu-ray disc"

Yeah. I have a lot of confidence in Blu-Ray. After all, all of Sony's previous proprietary formats have caught on.

Things like Beta, MiniDisc, MemoryStick, and...

Oh, wait.

Never mind.

"...and a HDD."

Uh. I have one of those things for my 360.

"No high def movie player for the 360"

No HD DVD player for the 360?

I wonder what I've been watching all those HD-DVDs with, then...

Oh, yeah!

My HD-DVD player for the 360.

"and the games have to fit on a single dual layer dvd or go to multiple disc media or downloads, and that can be a pain."

How many 360 games require disc swapping?

I own quite a few, and I have yet to experience this pain you mention...

"Did I mention that the Playstation Online gameplay is completely and utterly free of charge???"

You get what you pay for.

I hope you don't mind having to have seperate friends lists for each game you play - or having to log out of your game just to chat with someone else (I can have an audio conversation with a friend while I play one game and he plays another - you can't do that on a PS3 - hell, you can't even listen to your own music while you play, which is something we take for granted on the 360).

"Well I'm mentioning it now. Yes, I like Sony. The PS3 also works with the PSP."

It's good you like Sony! Considering the high price you paid for the console, and the extra dough for component cables, you damn well better like them. That, and all the problems the PS3 has had (like the notorious 1080i issue), leads me to believe that a high degree of faith in the company that brought you the world's favorite CD DRM scheme should be necessary for any enjoyment at all.

My PSP, by the way, has been collecting dust ever since I realized nobody was ever going to release a good original game for it. Everything's either a crappy PS2 port or a crappy original.

My DS Lite, on the other hand, is a wonderful device. It's no wonder Nintendo is beating the crap out of Sony on every front right now.
December 12, 2006 10:26 PM
 

Massif said:

"My PSP, by the way, has been collecting dust ever since I realized nobody was ever going to release a good original game for it. Everything's either a crappy PS2 port or a crappy original. "

Come on, Loco Roco is brilliant. I did quite like Mercury, but was disappointed when they dropped the motion sensor USB addon for it as it cost too much to turn into a viable product. That would have been awesome.

I'm still patiently waiting for the GPS plugin to leave Japan, and then the ole' PSP will be getting some serious use.

Plus the argument about price and the PS3 is a little difficult when you start talking about buying the HD DVD addon too. Once you've bought that the difference isn't that great, of course if you don't buy that then it's huge.

Still, as I'd need a new telly before either a 360, of a PS3 makes sense, then it's not going to be something I worry about.
December 13, 2006 12:56 AM
 

buttersnoname said:

"I realized nobody was ever going to release a good original game for it"

Loco Roco,
GTA liberty city stories
SOCOM - http://psp.ign.com/objects/664/664952.html
All the midway and other arcade classics.
Playing paperboy and mortal combat in the original quality on a handheld rules.

ect.., ect..., ect....
Plus you can dump movies to your memory stick ect....

If you don't want to make use of it, it's your money wasting away.
It's a perfectly good machine. Give it to a needy kid, instead of having it collect dust. I doubt a needy kid would waste it the way you do.
December 13, 2006 6:11 AM
 

Rory said:

buttersnoname -

"Loco Roco,
GTA liberty city stories
SOCOM"

Wow. Three games.

You can imagine how seeing a list of three original games restores my faith in the device and my belief that it must be worth the price.

"All the midway and other arcade classics."

The current trend of getting excited about being able to play games that are officially antiques isn't something I've gotten caught upin.

"Playing paperboy and mortal combat in the original quality on a handheld rules."

If you're satisfied paying a couple hundred dollars for a device that can run old arcade games in their "original quality," then I don't thing you and I are going to agree on what makes a worthwhile gaming purchase.

"If you don't want to make use of it, it's your money wasting away."

Thanks for the harsh lesson in reality. That thing, as you imply, really is a money pit - my money *is* currently "wasting away" as a result of having purchased the device. It's like unauthorized debits are being made against my checking account even though I paid for this thing a long time ago.

"It's a perfectly good machine."

I think the hardware's fantastic. It's the lineup of games that totally sucks.

"Give it to a needy kid, instead of having it collect dust. I doubt a needy kid would waste it the way you do."

A *needy* kid? I think a *needy* kid probably doesn't "need" a PSP, but, rather, food, shelter, and so on.

And, where that's concerned, I already give to Children International, so I think I have my bases covered where "needy" kids are concerned.

Rather, I'm just going to sell it. It's that simple.

And my money can finally stop "wasting away"...
December 13, 2006 10:34 AM
 

ShallRemainNameless said:

"It's like unauthorized debits are being made against my checking account even though I paid for this thing a long time ago."

That's exactly how I felt with Xbox Live, except you couldn't simply stop it from the xbox, oh no, you had to call them where they would rigorously demand an explanation about *why* you no longer wanted to give them money.

and micropayments too.

what a rip off. I'd rather chat offline, and have seperate lists.
Where's the "other os installer" on Xbox?

I think that each system has some good and bad points, but for those who which to conserve some control, the PS3 is a wiser choice.
December 13, 2006 10:48 AM
 

Rory said:

ShallRemainNameless -

"That's exactly how I felt with Xbox Live, except you couldn't simply stop it from the xbox, oh no, you had to call them where they would rigorously demand an explanation about *why* you no longer wanted to give them money."

Should've read the terms of service agreement.

If you can't read it yourself, you should have asked someone else to read it to you.

"what a rip off. I'd rather chat offline, and have seperate lists."

Suit yourself.

If you want to pay more for less, then that's your problem.

"I think that each system has some good and bad points, but for those who which to conserve some control, the PS3 is a wiser choice."

Weird. I made my console choice based on cost, availablity, titles, services, and so on.

I never thought of making a choice based upon my desire to dominate my console. But, then, I've never felt particularly inferior to any console, so yours is a position to which I honestly cannot relate.

What do you do to keep your PS3 in line? Can you talk about it?

Are whips involved?
December 13, 2006 12:37 PM
 

ShallRemainNameless said:

Hey buddy, I was talking about video games and the freedom of design you get by using Linux & PS3 instead of some subset XNA SDK. If you want to go off on a personal tangent to something you may be interested in, it's all you, ok.

December 13, 2006 12:54 PM
 

Rory said:

ShallRemainNameless -

"Hey buddy, I was talking about video games and the freedom of design you get by using Linux & PS3 instead of some subset XNA SDK. If you want to go off on a personal tangent to something you may be interested in, it's all you, ok."

Here's a tip - if you don't want people arguing with you, then don't wander into a site, read a post, and then deliberately stir up trouble while posting anonymously.

That said, if by "freedom" you mean the freedom to use some crappy GDK and be limited to software rendering, then great. Enjoy your freedom.

But this post was about an officially sanctioned and high quality game development solution. It was entirely postitive, it didn't slam any particular competitor, and you came in trying to start a little turf war.

Take a look at your first comment:

"so what?

Why have a special development kit to build a game on DirectX???
You can take your OpenGL game AS IS, and run it on PS3.

BTW, I have a PS3 and IT SMOKES!!!
Got the last one at MicroPlay biotch!"

This was obviously a troll. Instead of recognizing that MS is doing something really cool by releasing XNA Game Studio Express for free, thereby making game development much more accessible to people than it's ever been, and with console support in exchange for a modest fee, you came in and said, "So what?"

You don't get it - right now, your choices for development on the PS3 *suck*. Like I've said, you're limited to software rendering as well as a bunch of arcane development tools (have you ever read interviews of devs talking about the difference between developing on the PS vs. the Xbox? It's something you ought to do if you think Sony has a good development story).

If MS is successful with this, then Sony might have to respond in kind by providing its own high quality dev kit - maybe something Java based - that can compete with XNA Game Studio Express. That would be a *good* thing for the PS3 crowd, 'cause the only way you're going to get hardware rendering on the PS3 without voiding your warranty and risking bricking your system after an update is to do it with Sony's help and permission.

The "freedom" you're talking about is nothing. It's about as exciting as getting to develop and play games inside a Virtual PC image that's emulating that old Trident card with no GPU support.

With XNA, you get full access to the system (less networking, but that's something they're considering) as well as high quality samples (with full source), an official community (which means you get support), and the confidence that XNA homebrew won't require that you risk bricking your system.

But, you ignored that and came in here playing the PS3 fanboy card right at the start. If you want to be an asshole and dismiss what is probably the coolest thing a company has ever done in support of console homebrew and hobbyist development, then don't expect nice treatment in return.
December 13, 2006 1:28 PM
 

ShallRemainNameless said:

"But, you ignored that and came in here playing the PS3 fanboy card right at the start. If you want to be an asshole and dismiss what is probably the coolest thing a company has ever done in support of console homebrew and hobbyist development, then don't expect nice treatment in return."

If you create a game for Linux on the PS3, you can burn it or share it via a network, and other people can play it. How does unsigned media fare on the Xbox 360?

Can you sell a CD of your game after you finish it?
Or do you have to go through the xblox live taxation gateway?

There is a huge difference between the 2 approaches.
December 13, 2006 2:03 PM
 

Rory said:

ShallRemainNameless -

"If you create a game for Linux on the PS3, you can burn it or share it via a network, and other people can play it. How does unsigned media fare on the Xbox 360?"

Games can be shared - no problem.

"Can you sell a CD of your game after you finish it?"

Don't know. Read the EULA.

"Or do you have to go through the xblox live taxation gateway?"

Xbox Live Marketplace gives amateur and hobbyist developers a fantastic channel through which to sell their products.

If you think it's better to sell your game yourself, either on the shelf or through your own site, then you're nuts.

Xbox Live Marketplace already has an audience and a means in place to handle transactions.

That's a *good* thing for small-time game developers.

"There is a huge difference between the 2 approaches."

That statement doesn't prove any point, nor does it, in any way, address the benefits of XNA over your PS3/Linux hack.

For a list of the benefits (support, IDE, etc.), read my previous comment.

XNA is, without a doubt, the better solution. I'm guessing the reason you've strayed from that point is that you know you can't challenge it with your PS3/Linux/Software-rendering story.
December 13, 2006 2:49 PM
 

ShallRemainNameless said:

"Xbox Live Marketplace gives amateur and hobbyist developers a fantastic channel through which to sell their products."

That's it. I'm going to another used car lot. Thanks for your time.
December 13, 2006 3:57 PM
 

Rory said:

ShallRemainNameless -

"That's it. I'm going to another used car lot. Thanks for your time."

Can't take what you dish out, eh?

Typical anonymous poster.
December 13, 2006 4:28 PM
 

John Walker said:

Another interesting point here...If you develop an XNA game, I believe you can play it on any Windows PC, in addition to an XBOX 360. People, correct me if I'm wrong. I think that's pretty damn cool.

Sure, it's not playable on Linux, but let's be honest most people have a Windows OS available to them. Even the Mac crowd can use Parallels or Bootcamp to do this. That's pretty damn awesome.

PS: Rory, I'm interested in a '79 Chevy Vega if you have one available.

PPS: My family actually had one of those which was cool...but not as cool as a Pacer.
December 15, 2006 12:21 AM
 

Bil Simser said:

You know, I'm with you on XNA, it rocks. However I think MS dropped the ball on delivery. Sure it's free and only costs $99/year for the XBox delivery but out of the gate there's a few problems I have with it.

First off, no XBL support. This needs to get there (and hopefully will). Second, I already have Team Suite installed but now I have to install a crappy Express SKU to build stuff. Doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy. Again, something I think that will be rectified (according to something Scott Gu mentioned).

The big thing though is this concept that nobody out there can play anything I create unless they have XNA Game Studio installed and pay the $99/year subscription. That bites. So the only people I can show off my XBox kung-fu is other Xbox kung-fu artists that shell out the fee. Again, something that will hopefully be resolved along with some kind of delivery system.

I'm all for MS and taking over the gaming world one XBox at a time. Console development for indie guys like me was completely out of my reach as you needed to shell out thousands of dollars and even then, you couldn't publish anything. XBL changes all that and makes the indie world your oyster and with XNA it's now something that's in reach of our goals of invading millions of homes now rather than millions of computers (or both since it's all DirectX based).

The gap is there and this fills one end of the void, but MS really needs to quickly get things up to par. It's all fine some kid in his basement can slam together a hello world spacewar game, but we need a better delivery mechanism and a better audience out there beyond the other geeks who are willing to try this thing out.
December 21, 2006 7:19 PM
 

Rory said:

Bil -

I think you're pretty much right on. I also think the XNA team would agree with you.

While I don't know what the official story is on providing easier delivery of games (binaries, of course), I would hope that's something they're planning on fixing - along with a lot of the other stuff.

The important thing to remember is that XNA Game Studio Express went from concept to releast in only six months. For a project so ambitious, that's pretty good. I'm hoping that the talent which went into what we currently have - in this v1.0 product - will churn out another nice release before long.

I think v1.5 or v2.0 is going to be a whole different story...
December 21, 2006 7:58 PM
 

Bil Simser said:

@Rory: You're totally right. From a wet dream in somebodys head to a crawling infant in 6 months, that kicks. So I have no doubt the team will pull things together and we'll all be happy in a v2 world swapping files online like the 360 fanboys we are. Here's looking towards that future when I can kick yer ass in my own game rather than wiping it up in DOA (which you still owe me a match).
December 22, 2006 6:38 PM
 

It's my life... And I live it... said:


 Rory goes into his fond memories of past game developers and how pure the art was back in the day....
January 11, 2007 3:15 PM

Insert foot in mouth here:

(required) 
(optional)
(required) 

About Rory

I *own* this site, you loser.

This Blog

Post Calendar

<December 2006>
SuMoTuWeThFrSa
262728293012
3456789
10111213141516
17181920212223
24252627282930
31123456